I’m so excited to share this week’s NEW episode with Nicole Zasowski, a Marriage & Family Therapist and the author of What If It’s Wonderful?, From Lost to Found, and Daring Joy. In this conversation, we talk about why joy can feel so vulnerable, why our minds often default to worst-case scenarios, and how we can find the courage to embrace the good in our lives instead of always fearing what’s around the corner. For so many of us, it feels safer to prepare for disappointment than to fully lean into joy — but in doing so, we miss out on the very moments we’re longing for. Nicole shares powerful insights and practical steps to help us shift our perspective, regulate our thoughts, and truly celebrate both the small and big moments that make life meaningful.
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, how to Be Well and Strong. I’m your host, Jacque Will and Genova, and I’m excited to have you join me as I speak with some of the leading figures in the fields of wellness, integrative medicine, and mental health, as we discover what it truly means to be well and strong in both body and mind.
Get ready to be empowered, inspired, and motivated about being an advocate for your own health.
Welcome back to another episode, everyone. I know I’ve been playing a lot of old episode revisits because I haven’t really had a chance to record any new ones, which is why I’m so excited to share this week’s new episode with my new friend, Nicole Zaki, a marriage and family therapist, and the author of What If It’s Wonderful, from Lost to Found and Daring Joy.
In this conversation, we talk about why Joy can feel so vulnerable, why our minds often default to worst case scenarios. And how we can find the courage to embrace the good in our lives instead of always fearing [00:01:00] what’s around the corner. For so many of us, it feels safer to prepare for disappointment than to fully lean into joy.
But in doing so, we miss out on the very moments we’re longing for. Nicole shares powerful insights and practical steps to help us shift our perspective, regulate our thoughts, and truly celebrate the small and big moments that make life meaningful. I’m so excited to share this conversation with you guys.
It really encouraged me and I hope it blesses you too. Let’s get into it. Just to kick things off, I first heard about you, I think it was on Stephanie May Wilson’s podcast. Okay. And I heard your conversation and right away I was like, I love this woman. I, I read your books, um, and I, I really wanted to get you on.
So again, thank you so much for your flexibility and our constant rescheduling, but I’m, I’m really excited to have you on the show today. And many of my listeners know I’ve been replaying old podcast episodes, so I’m sure everyone’s very excited to finally have a new one now.
Nicole: Oh, well I’m thrilled to be here and excited for this conversation.
Jacqueline: Awesome. [00:02:00] Well, Nicole, you wrote some incredible books, um, two of which I have in front of me. One is what If It’s Wonderful, and the other is Daring Joy, and I’m gonna be jumping back and forth a bit between the two because there’s a lot of crossover, as you know, with your themes, but. I just wanted to share too with you, Nicole, that I have this practice, and I’m sure you’ve heard of it.
It’s called like your one word for the year where you pray about a word in the months prior to a new year, and that is kind of like your theme word. Sure. So. Ironically enough, my word for this year was joy.
Nicole: Aw.
Jacqueline: And as this year started off, you know, I had a very different perception of what joy actually meant.
And then Sure. As I shared with you before, we kicked it off, my family experienced, um. Pretty much a tragedy a couple months ago, and that really led me to do more of a deep dive, uh, into that word joy. Right? And I really understood that joy is not circumstantial, as you very well know, and you discuss a [00:03:00] lot.
So it just, again, this conversation is so timely because I’ve realized that we can’t actually know what joy is without going through grief. Right. And I wanted to just start by asking what inspired you to write these two incredible books?
Nicole: Sure. Well, what if It’s Wonderful Came First? That’s, that’s a traditional book.
Um, and Daring Joy is the Bible study experience. They’re not connected but daring. Continues the conversation from What if it’s wonderful. Um, and that message came to me out of a season that could largely be characterized by change in loss. A lot of people see that it’s about joy and celebration and assume that I had a lot.
Of things to say about that, which hopefully I do now. But, um, it, it really, that that message was born much more out of my pain. Um, my husband and I [00:04:00] walked through about a decade. Um. Of, of a season that could be, uh, you know, obviously had pain and joy included in it, but, but definitely leaned on the painful side.
And what I recognized was when we did start to encounter some good news and some breakthrough in our story, I was hesitant to embrace it. And I, you know, if you’ve been through. Trauma or pain of any kind, you know that it can feel safer not to hold that joy at all than to hold something that might break.
And that’s definitely where I was. And I was so grieved when I realized that yes, I’ve experienced a lot of tangible loss. In my story, but a lot of the loss I’ve experienced has been my refusal to embrace the very good things in front of me that God has for me. I thought [00:05:00] no more. I don’t wanna miss out on my beautiful God-given life because I’m so busy preparing for the worst and trying to protect my heart.
And I learned that I’m not alone, that joy is actually the most vulnerable feeling we feel because when we hold something, it is automatically accompanied by the possibility of loss. And again, if you’ve been through some pain, you know, it can feel safer not to hold that joy at all. Hold something that might break.
So that sent me into a deep dive into scripture. Um, I looked at the neuroscience research. I’m a marriage and family therapist, so I’m fascinated by the way that God designed our brains. And I really under wanted to understand what’s a joy that’s safe to hold. No matter what kind of season I walk through, whether it’s a celebratory season or a really painful season, what is a joy that’s available to us that’s actually safe to grasp onto in any kind of season?
And that’s where [00:06:00] what If It’s Wonderful was Born? And I just had a sense I wasn’t done when I turned in that book and published that book, and when I published it, I could have never. Uh, anticipated all the applications that readers were sharing with me about how that message resonated with them. And I started, you know, in continuing my own Bible study, I, I saw this message over and over again in scripture as well, and so that’s why I continued the conversation with the Bible study during Joy.
I
Jacqueline: love that. What do they say? Authors write the books that they need the most. Is that the same? 100%.
Nicole: I
Jacqueline: love that. At least,
Nicole: at least in my experience, the best books are written from that place. I’m
Jacqueline: sure. I can imagine how cathartic it would be. Um. But no, there again, I mentioned this book could cannot have come at a better time and it certainly helped me so much.
Um, going back though to the topic of, you know, always being scared with what’s around the corner. One [00:07:00] thing in what if it’s wonderful, that really stuck out to me was this concept of broken toys, right? Mm-hmm. And that certainly resonated with me. I’m sure it resonated with many, you know, readers as well.
But can you explain that concept? Because I thought it was such. An amazing analogy.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So that came out of an exercise that I did at a therapy training and, and I had volunteered to be the client, always a good idea, uh, with, and my mentor was the, the therapist. And we were practicing, you know, using metaphor in therapeutic sessions, which can be a really powerful tool for.
Us and and our clients to understand how they feel and, um, to maybe. Uh, take a more empowered position with their, their pain. And, uh, somebody gave me this metaphor as I was talking about how [00:08:00] I was feeling, and they said, you know, Nicole, I just get this sense that you. Are so eager on Christmas morning to open up all these beautifully wrapped presents, but on the inside, the toys are broken and you’ve tried to find a way to, to play with them.
And may you’re, you’re so committed to figuring out, um. How they might, how you might use them and, and how they might be useful to you in your life, but you’re fighting for joy and on the inside it just feels like, is I also, I’m mixing my metaphors here, but I, I also describe it as, you know, I just felt like the joy in my life would always look like broccoli on a dinner plate.
Like something that’s good for me, right. But never anything I was that excited about. And so, um. My mentor and I, you [00:09:00] can read the full chapter for the, for the full unpacking of the metaphor, but my, my mentor helped me understand, you know, how I could be good at playing with broken toys, the things that.
Maybe I wouldn’t have written into my story or chosen, um, but are there, and how could even those things be an avenue of joy?
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, I love that. And I, I wrote down an excerpt as I was preparing for this, because again, you had so many good little blurbs. I was like, I really wanna just conclude these. But you said that the broken toys weren’t even the babies or the pregnancies themselves.
But the unmet expectations, the disappointment and the grief that characterized that season.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline: I read that three times over because I was like, that is so powerful. But it’s so true. And with anything, whether that’s the loss of a dream, the death of a loved one, you know, it’s not so much the act of what happened as it is, or thoughts about the future.
All the implications around, you know, that event, um, [00:10:00] that is just so, so challenging to, to face, you know? And I think that also comes back to bringing ourselves back to the present moment, right? And being fully present in our lives and truly living each day at a time, just as Jesus says. But going back to the concept too.
Always fearing what’s around the corner. Even my pastor Nicole mentioned this on Sunday, and it was so timely because I was like, Hmm, I’m actually chatting about that topic with Nicole. But he mentioned in a sermon Sunday that one of the things he hates the most is how we can be in the happiest of moments, and then the other shoe drops, which makes it hard to enjoy the present.
You know that text will come in or something will happen.
Nicole: Sure.
Jacqueline: So you alluded to this before, but what advice do you have for listeners who are struggling with that? Right. I’ve, I’ve been kind of thinking too is when something in your life happens, it’s hard to trust God again. Right. Something that you don’t expect.
Mm-hmm. And I like the analogy of, you know, when I was younger I used to jump off from the staircase and [00:11:00] my dad would be at the bottom to catch us. And it was a fun game. And I imagine, you know, one day my dad just lets me fall flat on my face. Right.
Nicole: Right.
Jacqueline: What would make me want. To jump again. Right.
Knowing that that already happened. Yeah. And that’s kind of how I, I feel with God a bit. Right. When something happens mm-hmm. That we don’t want, it’s like, how can you trust him again knowing that he permitted something so, so awful.
Nicole: Sure. Sure. Um, I have a few different thoughts on this. The, the first is that often we are bracing ourselves for the other shoe to drop, and it doesn’t, so the way, the way to tolerate, um, the vulnerability of joy research says is the practice of.
Thanksgiving, and this is different than gratitude. Gratitude’s really helpful. It helps us notice and name what is good, and it does increase our joy. Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. So [00:12:00] actually saying it out loud, either to God in our prayers or to somebody in your life that he’s gifted you with, um, but actually looking someone in the eye or speaking out loud to God.
This is what I’m thankful for. This is why I am thankful for it. You know, engaging God in that conversation or engaging someone else, research says that’s the best way to actually be able to hold that good thing without letting your mind go to the other shoe. Dropping. Now, sometimes the other shoe does drop, and, um, what do we do then?
What does that mean for our joy, our celebration? How safe it is to celebrate the next time something good happens. And to me, the most helpful thing when I was contemplating this was looking at the Old Testament because there’s so many feasts and festivals that are outlined in [00:13:00] detail in the Old Testament, and what I noticed is that.
These feasts and festivals weren’t happening in reaction. They were happening in rhythm. So whether it was every year, every seven years, every 50 years, the Israelites didn’t celebrate because. They had done something great and wanted to celebrate. Most of the time, the Israelites celebrated because it was time they celebrated in rhythm.
And what that did was it kept their joy connected to God’s goodness instead of simply, uh. Being a reaction to their own. So it was about remembering God’s goodness instead of reacting to the goodness of that given day. And that was so powerful for me because that was, that was at its root. The purpose of their celebration was to remember God’s faithfulness to them and their story, [00:14:00] and to recall his character.
That was still true today. Knowing how difficult their journey was through the wilderness. I can imagine many times where that feast or festival came up and they weren’t in the mood to celebrate at all. Maybe they were in captivity or maybe they were wandering the wilderness not knowing what was gonna happen next.
Yet they celebrated anyway, and that celebration kept them connected to the goodness of God. And I think that is not how we tend to think of celebration in our culture today. We, we see it as a reward for an accomplishment or a reaction to good news. Something that’s on the far side of a goal achieved or, um, some sort of change.
In our circumstances that we’re wanting to see, and what that can do is that can leave many of us feeling like our nose is pressed against the glass, looking in on something that we can’t have and have to wait for [00:15:00] more favorable circumstances to experience.
Jacqueline: Yeah,
Nicole: that’s not the heart of God.
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, that’s so good.
I mean, Paul tells us to you to give thanks in all things, right? Yes. All things. And I really never thought about the word all until again, you experienced something and you’re like, really? I’m supposed to give thanks in, in my suffering and my trials, but mm-hmm. One thing too that also really stuck out to me, again, this conversation so timely, but even in Erica Kirk’s, um, speech.
Following Charlie’s death chat, I thought it was so, so powerful that she said, God is good. Our God is good. And just the strength and and courage it took to say that, you know, amidst what happened to her. I think that’s one thing the enemy hates more than anything, is our ability to still praise God, right?
And say, God is good. In the midst of like one of the worst things that could happen in life.
Nicole: Yeah. And let me be clear, that doesn’t mean we have to be thankful for what happened, um, that that’s not what Paul said. He said, be [00:16:00] thankful in what happened. And that is because. Our pain does not have the final say.
Um, and that’s what Erica was, was alluding to as well. Uh, she was honest about her pain. You could see it mm-hmm. In the way that she was speaking. Um, you know, the ability to feel fully and embrace, um. The full range of emotion in our human experience and still be able to turn toward God with our questions, knowing that he is always good, his character is unchanging.
He grieves with us when those things happen. Um, they break the heart of God when, when something breaks our hearts.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: Uh, and he and he is present with us in that and he is. Faithful and I think remembering how God had been faithful to me and my story up until a certain point, um, that I was grieving, [00:17:00] really helped me.
Um. Have, have a courage to turn toward him in the present, but also gave me a curiosity for the future of what might God do well,
Jacqueline: that, that lends to my next question too, Nicole, is how, how do you maintain that sense of hope, right after what seemingly, like all these sufferings and trials that happen again and again, you know, like tactically, what does that look like?
And you mentioned Thanksgiving, but I don’t know, like in your mind, when you’re experiencing those emotions, what do you, what do you do?
Nicole: That’s a great question. Um, that’s the best recipe I have is recall God’s character name, what is still true about him, and recall the ways that he has been faithful to me in my story.
That is what fuels me, um, and gives me hope. One of my favorite passages on joy and hope. Is ironic. It’s actually from Lamentations three. Not scratch, but it’s because of what we’re talking [00:18:00] about and I love that the author is so honest about the ways that he’s hurting through most of the beginning of that chapter.
I think it’s like 19 or 20 verses. He’s. Really naming some hard feelings and, and being pretty honest about his emotional experience around the pain in his life. But then from like 19 to verse 22, there’s this turning point and he says, but this I call to mind and therefore I have hope. And I love that because there’s no indication his circumstances have changed.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: There’s no in indication that even his feelings have changed, but he’s recalling something to mind and, and therefore he has hope. And then he starts preaching to his own heart. And I think in today’s culture and what we often hear from. The psychology therapy world is some, somehow gives us this [00:19:00] message that we have to wait to feel differently before we do something different, that we’re somehow not honoring our feelings if we, um, start preaching truth to our heart or start acting on what we know to be true instead of reacting to how we feel.
And I wish that were the case, um, that that’s how change happens. But really how change happens is that we have to preach truth to our own heart before we feel it, because the brain prefers what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true. So we have to help the truth become familiar to our brains.
And that doesn’t mean negating our feelings, it just means I need to honor my feelings, but also. Be a good steward of them. Yeah. In a way that brings me to wholeness and, and helps me connect with God and other people.
Jacqueline: I love that. Yeah. I mean, action precedes motivation right in, in pretty much everything.
Have you heard Nicole of um, oh my goodness, what is her [00:20:00] name? Joe Hargreaves. She’s known as the faith filled therapist on Instagram. Yes. Yeah.
Nicole: Yes. She has a lot of great stuff. I’m not surprised. Yeah.
Jacqueline: I had a great conversation with her. Again, this is several months ago, but you know, we were also just talking about again, how to tactically take your thoughts captive, right?
And she has so many awesome guides and courses on how to do that. But we also spoke about, you know, the power of just speaking the word over your life and affirmations. And even just sitting here at my desk, Nicole, I have so many just. Versus paste it to my wall, right? That whenever my mind starts to spiral, I stop.
I turn my face and I look at a verse. And that really becomes ingrained in your subconscious and it, it changes how you see everything. Um, so that’s certainly a practice that, you know, I’ve, I’ve tried to incorporate into my daily life and it’s. It’s been a game changer.
Nicole: Yes. No, it’s, it’s the only way Yeah.
That we can move through that pain, um, with wholeness and, and so we’re not perpetuating that pain. Yeah. [00:21:00] Is to be able to be honest about what hurts and also say what is the message that I wanna claim? Moving forward, what is a woman who believes that do, she does things and then we practice those things.
So true.
Jacqueline: Even if, even if it’s hard, we, you know, again. Yep. Forcing yourself, discipline. It just gets easier with time. Um, something else too, Nicole, that’s helped me is also just realizing that. Whatever season we find ourselves in that this too shall pass, right? Like nothing lasts forever. Whether it’s, whether you’re in a valley or you’re at the mountaintop, nothing lasts forever.
And my mom’s so cute. I recently got her into Instagram, Nicole, and she’s figuring out like how it works and she’s always sending me, like, jamming me, all these reel. I’m still figuring out how it works. So it’s not easy. It’s not, it’s really not. But um. She’ll send me all of these, you know, just reels that come up on her feed.
And she sent me one last night. Sure. And I screenshot it and I wanted to share it with you and with listeners because again, I think it pertains to this conversation and [00:22:00] also to the fact that. Nothing lasts forever. Right, and it’s called the Wave Theory, and I’m sure you’ve heard of it, but it said, life always moves in waves.
Some crash into you with a forest that almost drown you. Others lift you higher than you think you can ever rise. The small ones come and grow quietly. Barely noticed the massive ones reshape your entire direction. The secret is not fighting the wave, but instead learning how to ride it. Pain, joy, loss, happiness, and success all arrive in sets.
Just when you think you’re finished and you swell is forming in the distance, you can’t control when the waves come. You can only control weather to sink or stand and surf. That choice determines everything.
Nicole: Hmm. I had actually not heard that before, but, oh, good. But it resonate with a lot of what it says.
I’m sure
Jacqueline: you do. Yeah. Again, underlying theme in this book, but it, it really is true. And again, recognizing that nothing lasts forever. Um mm-hmm. And, you know, that includes our emotions also, I think helps us to avoid that. Looming sense of, [00:23:00] oh, like the other shoe’s gonna drop at some point, but inevitably it will, right?
Like no one experiences no suffering in this life. Like no one escapes that. Um, which lends to, to my next question too, Nicole, this whole concept of comparison, and I know you talk about this in your book two and. I think, you know, certainly in times of grief it’s so easy to look at someone else, even a stranger on the street and say like, oh, like their life is perfect.
Even my sister and I were talking about this, you know, a couple weeks ago we were like, what if everyone had an imaginary sign over their head, right, that you pass in the street that literally just listed like their grievances or what they were going through. Like how powerful would that be? Just in a understanding like the way they act or you know, what they do or don’t do.
But b, just having a sense of empathy and understanding that, you know, you also are not alone in what you’re going through either. Like there are other sufferings and, and trials that people around you are experiencing. Um, all [00:24:00] that said though, how do we avoid comparing, I guess like grievances, right? When we’re in seasons and you know, this, this sense that, you know, joy and grief can’t coexist.
And I know you write about that a lot too. Um, even though they can.
Nicole: Yeah, I think, um. It is, it’s a no no win habit to, uh, compare our hardships against someone else. Um, I think everybody, like you said, ex encounters pain in this life and we don’t have to know the exact, or have been through the exact thing to be called to compassion and empathy for them.
Um. And one, one of the first questions, uh, or comments that I got when I started to share with my community that I was writing on this topic [00:25:00] was, one of the things I heard most frequently was, oh, we are so much better at. Mourning with those who mourn than we are rejoicing with those who rejoice. Um, and I think it spoke to that comparison thing.
It’s particularly hard to celebrate with someone when maybe they’re celebrating the dream that steps on the toes of your own. Um, and. I really wanted to understand, and this is a different kind of comparison than measuring, you know, your hardships against another, but, uh, all kind of comparison is relationally unhelpful.
Um, but one, one. Two stories that stood out to me and really showed me what it looks like to rejoice with those who rejoice. One was Miriam. Um, and, and she, she was an interesting one to study in the Bible study ’cause she was kind of a blend of what to do and what not to do. [00:26:00] And this, this story is a what not to do.
Um, but she had this amazing role, especially for a woman at that time in that culture. Um. An amazing leadership role in the Israelite community. And yet as CS Lewis says, pride gets no joy out, out of having something, only out of having more of it than someone else. And, uh, she looked at Moses and said, well, I don’t have that.
I’m not the leader of the whole community. Um, and it caused her, you know, she suffered some consequences because of that. It, it caused her, it robbed her of joy, both in her own role, um, but also in, in her standing, in her relationship with God, um, and her brothers. And so. Fast forward, um, Moses gets an opportunity to, to rejoice with those who rejoice.
And I really wanted to understand, like I said, what this looks like because it became clear to me. We don’t really have a great picture. We hear. [00:27:00] Don’t compare, but we don’t hear what we should do. Right. Instead. Right. Um, and if I tell you, you know, not to think about pink elephants, what are you gonna think about?
I mean, comparison is a little bit of the same thing, like don’t do it, but what’s the alternative? Um, and so I came across Deuteronomy three and just to. Quickly recap where the Israelites are at that point. Uh, the Bible says they’re so close to the promised land that they can actually see it in the distance at this point.
And Moses has been their leader this whole time, but because he had disobeyed God earlier in that journey, he was told, you’re actually not gonna be the one to lead my people in. To the promised Land. Mm-hmm. You’re not gonna get to enter it yourself. And so he goes up on this mountain and he speaks with God, and I love his honesty.
He ask God, one more time to change his mind. Can I please be the one to lead your people into the [00:28:00] promised land? And God gives an emphatic no, which was challenging in and of itself, but what I’m really challenged by is what he said next. He said, I want you to commission Joshua. For the job that you would love to have for yourself, and basically that means I want you to prepare him.
For the job that you would love to have for yourself. And so what that spoke to me as an antidote for comparison is that I think often when we’re trying not to compare, we try to find a way to accept someone else’s joy and just to be okay with it and often. That looks like a nicer form of comparison.
Mm-hmm. Well, she has that, but I have this and she doesn’t have that. So I can feel okay about her joy. ’cause I have this other thing when really our call is not just to accept someone’s joy, but to accelerate.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: Someone’s joy. That’s so good. And think about how we can fast [00:29:00] forward there. Dream. Yeah. No,
Jacqueline: that’s so good.
One thing that comes to mind too, Nicole, is like, how does that look like? In a time perspective. So let’s say like someone experienced this, you know, tragic accident. You, you’ve experienced so many miscarriages, like yes. How are you able to go out and see mothers with their babies, right? Mm-hmm. And not feel triggered and have, yeah, healthy boundaries for yourself while also ensuring that, you know, you’re not gonna isolate yourself.
And you do have to expose yourself over time to that, because that’s life, right?
Nicole: Yes. And that’s, that’s such a nuanced, um. Tricky thing in terms of what that looks like for each person, but I can definitely give some guiding principles of, you know, sometimes we do need to skip the three hour long baby shower when we’ve just had a miscarriage or a, a pregnancy loss of some kind, or, or.
Infertility, a prolonged season of infertility where this just isn’t happening and we don’t know why. And [00:30:00] it’s some, it’s a dream we’ve held for a long time. Um, certainly there, there are ways and places and times to protect our heart. Um. Intention with that. I think the challenge is the one that, that God gave to Moses.
Um, and often the pushback I get from women or the question I get about this is, well, Nicole, I, I want. To want to celebrate I, and I don’t wanna celebrate and be fake because it’s not a reflection of my actual feelings. And I really understand that going back to our earlier conversation. It’s so much more fun to act.
Based on our feelings and to want to celebrate and have our celebration of someone overflow from that place. But again, what I do know about the brain is that we can think and act our way to a new feeling. We can’t [00:31:00] necessarily wait to feel our way to a new way of thinking and acting. And. I had, I have an example of this.
So you mentioned, yes, I’ve had multiple miscarriages and there was a season where my goodness, I would get pregnant with my friends and then their pregnancy would result in a, a new life that we got to snuggle and meet and mine would result in miscarriage and a loss. And it was so painful and I, I did make some choices around.
Timing and whether or not I attended baby showers and, and those sorts of things. But around the same time I moved into a house, uh, that I did absolutely no work in landscaping or didn’t choose any of the plants or flowers at that house. Uh, but lo and behold, when spring and summer came, I realized the two flowers that were planted were pink roses and blue hydrangeas.
And [00:32:00] I had this experience of, I was in the midst of a lot of pain emotionally, and a lot of my friends were having babies. And I challenged myself to make bouquets of either pink roses or blue hydrangeas. Wow. And. Worked with my hands in making those bouquets for my friends, and I’ll be darned if actually getting moving and getting my hands busy and doing something for someone else didn’t shift my heart, even though that’s not where I started out.
And so my encouragement is that. Acting first before your feelings are there is not fake. It’s formation.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: And that can be a wonder, a wonderful avenue of something God uses to actually bring healing. Um, when we’re able to rejoice with those who rejoice. And hopefully [00:33:00] those same friends in your life are just as willing to mourn.
With you in your morning and join you in that, in that place as well.
Jacqueline: Yeah. That’s so beautiful. On that topic too, Nicole, did you find that you formed new friendships with women who experienced the same thing as you in terms of miscarriage and. Oh, sure. If, and if so, like how, like how is that relationship different from, you know, the ones with your existing friends who didn’t experience that?
Because I think it’s important to also, you know, maintain your current friendships, right. But also be able to chat with women who like went through the same thing as you did, just because there’s a different understanding. Right?
Nicole: Yeah. And, and I don’t know that anybody had my exact story. Um. But I do think, I mean, certainly many of my friends had experienced mis miscarriages to some degree and knew that pain.
Um, but I also think it was the friends that are willing, were [00:34:00] willing to say, you know, this wasn’t part of my story, but help me understand what this has felt like for you. And I wanna sit here with you in the mud pit and I wanna understand how. How you’ve experienced this season, and maybe they’d gone through other hard things.
I hadn’t, you know, we didn’t necessarily have identical stories, but I think being willing to be, it was really the, the friends that were willing to be interrupted
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: By my, yep. Um, and hopefully they experienced something similar from me, whether I had gone through that exact same circumstance or not.
Um, but yeah, community brings. Healing in a lot of ways, and I, thankfully there’s more and more resources for people who have experienced the same things to gather and talk about what’s the unique pain of this? And I feel crazy for feeling this way, but then I’m not crazy. You know? It, it, [00:35:00] I learned that I’m not crazy because you’re, you’re literally taking the words outta my mouth as you’re sharing, I think.
Tho that’s the benefit of groups is, um, we get to hear our thoughts reflected in someone else and, and realize we’re not alone, which is one of the primary messages that is helpful to clinging, to when we’re hurting. Yeah.
Jacqueline: No, I love that. It is a unique pain, right? Everyone’s story is different, but. There are certain, you know, there’s definitely similarities in, in tragedies amongst different people.
Going back to the mud pit, Nicole, so something else you spoke about that I really appreciated, because this is something I think of often is, you know, we constantly hear the saying that you meet God in the valley. Right. As if that’s the only place we meet him and you know, certainly I know that. We draw closer to God through grief.
I reposted, you know, something like that the other day on, on Instagram. And it is true, right? Because in those times it’s like you don’t know really. Like you don’t have anything else to really go to for answers, right? And it forces you to open up that Bible and [00:36:00] say, God, what? What’s going on? But you also challenge that, which I really like too, saying that, you know, we can also know God, enjoy.
Yeah. So can you just explain that and wrap that for listeners? Yeah, I got a little rebellious
Nicole: against this idea. I love this, that, and, and I too, I’ve encountered God differently in my pain. In that painful season, I referred to at the beginning of this conversation, one of the gifts that came out of it was, I have a totally different understanding of who God is and a totally different relationship with him than I think I would’ve without that season.
So I understand what people are saying when they’re saying, you know, the rich, when they talk about the richness that can come from those dark valleys and the growth that can happen if you’re available to it. Um, but I did get rebellious. Against this thought that that’s the only place that God is working in our lives and in our hearts.
[00:37:00] Because I started to picture us leaning on him as he walks us, overground that’s maybe uneven. And then as soon as we get to ground, that’s soft underfoot him saying, okay, you go have fun and you let me know when you need me again, I didn’t. I didn’t like that. And I don’t think that’s biblical, that God is, uh, with us only in those seasons of pain.
I think the seasons of pain just give us the benefit and the gift of realizing how much we need him. Yeah. Um, that maybe are harder to realize in those seasons of joy. And so I wanted to ask myself what. How can God grow me in the light of joy? How, how can I interact with him? Um, and going back to that practice of Thanksgiving, um, the story that really illuminated this for me was, was the story of the 10 men with [00:38:00] leprosy and Luke 17.
And, uh, just to briefly recap. If their disease had brought them together, um, that would’ve been the thing that defined them over any other personal identity or family relationship or cultural identity in that culture because. People would’ve seen their disease first and identified them that way. And this group of men see Jesus in the distance and they cry out to him for healing.
And Jesus’ answer is interesting. He says, go to the temple, be on your way to the temple, which is typically the first step that one took after being physically healed. So they had to exercise some faith that on their way to the temple that they would all be healed. And sure enough. That’s what happens.
And we can assume, given the massive life change that that would’ve meant for them, not only physically, but relationally and culturally, we can assume that all [00:39:00] 10 men felt grateful, but only one returned to thank Jesus. And this one man, thanks Jesus. And Jesus says, well, weren’t all 10 heels. And I love this ’cause we can easily read this as Jesus’ bid for our praise.
But instead, Thanksgiving is the avenue we’ve been given to celebrate the gift with the giver. And so that’s why I started to practice Thanksgiving more, is that this is how we celebrate God’s good gifts with him and how we engage with him and grow. Light of our joy and not just waiting to access him when we’re in pain.
Yeah,
Jacqueline: no, I love that. I mean, even in the book of John, you know, Jesus’ first miracle was performed at a wedding feast, right? Yes. Like that’s a time of joy and of celebration, and I feel like a lot of people miss that.
Nicole: Yes. Deep things were happening at that wedding celebration. Important things were [00:40:00] happening at that wedding celebration and yeah.
That, that, that deeply matters to God.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: Um. Our, our joy God is more invested in our joy than we are. So true. Um, and often I think that’s not the perspective we have that, that we have that God, this idea that God is somehow limiting our joy or keeping us from joy or when really he’s the avenue of the greatest joy we could know.
Jacqueline: Right. No, that’s so true. One other question too for you, Nicole. Would you say Thanksgiving is like the factor that I guess determines whether someone goes toward God versus away from God after experiencing some type of of trial, right? So either being bitter as to why this happened versus saying, I don’t know why this happened, but I’m going to trust you, that you are sovereign, you permitted it for a reason.
Like what’s like the, yeah, like what’s the factor that determines which, which way someone would sway after a, a tragedy.[00:41:00]
That’s a, that’s a loaded question, but I’m just curious. No,
Nicole: it’s such a good question and I’m thinking out loud a bit here. ’cause no one’s ever asked me that before. I think it’s related. Uh, I’m thinking of Sarah, um, and I talk about this during her week in the Bible study during Joy. Um. And it’s a little bit different example than the one you just gave me, but I’m gonna go with it ’cause I think it might speak to what you’re saying.
Um, Abraham and Sarah were in a season of pain waiting for this promise that God had given them. Um, and. Well, even before they were waiting for the promise, just suffering from infertility. And, uh, Sarah being barren for many years, and now she’s getting older and that feels physically impossible, that she will be able to have a child.
And so they, they are in this shared pain [00:42:00] and they both receive news of this promise that no God is indeed going to give them a child. Um. And we see the difference in their reactions. They both, they both have a laughter, uh, but Sarah’s is protected with cynicism and pessimism. Um, she is experiencing the vulnerability of joy.
It’s her story that held up the mirror to how I was feeling and my own story, like. Sounds great, but that’s too vulnerable to trust. So I am going to expect the worst and I’m gonna be cynical about God’s motives and why he’s saying that and what that really looks like,
Jacqueline: right?
Nicole: So she turns away from God in protection.
She, she does not bring her questions and lack of understanding to God. She protects herself with a cynical laughter. Abraham doesn’t understand how this is possible any better than she [00:43:00] does, but his laughter is more of delighted disbelief and he wrestles with God in his questions, which is a sign of intimacy with God, right?
Um, so he turns towards God. And in that regard, knowing that Thanksgiving is the only way to tolerate. That vulnerability of joy. I’m gonna say that that was what Abraham’s posture was. Yeah. Was one of, oh my goodness. I am so thankful of this news. Do I understand it? No. Do I have some questions? Yes. But I’m gonna turn toward God in my questions, whereas Sarah couldn’t tolerate that vulnerability of joy.
She couldn’t praise God because that would’ve been embracing joy that she was afraid wasn’t true. Yeah. And so she turned away from him. So I do think it’s related. Yeah,
Jacqueline: absolutely. That was a great example, and I remember reading that too, in your endearing joy. Oh yeah. You mentioned the word expect and. I just [00:44:00] started thinking, you know, there’s two, I feel like different things that we hear.
Some people will say, you know, go into things with zero expectations so you won’t be disappointed. Right. Don’t expect anything. ’cause when you expect a lot, nothing happens, but mm-hmm. Doesn’t the Bible also tell us to, you know, wait on the Lord with great expectation and have vision. So how do you reconcile those two things and how do you yourself have like, I guess you could call it like.
Cautious optimism where like you still wanna be realistic about, you know, the other shoe dropping, but again, not wanting to live in fear constantly.
Nicole: Sure. I think, I think it really comes down to what you’re hanging your hope and expectation on. Um, is your hope in the character of God and his faithfulness to you to write a good story in your life, to, uh, be present with you in your pain.
Um. In a way that fuels your curiosity of, gosh, [00:45:00] what could God do even in this? I, and, and again, that doesn’t mean our hearts aren’t broken. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have honest questions for God about why, or I don’t understand, or I’m really hurting and that doesn’t feel like the good outcome that you would’ve wanted for me.
Um, but if our hope. Ultimately in the goodness of God and in, uh, who we receive when we pray and not just what we receive, then it is indeed safe to have an expectant heart, um, and pray for things with boldness, knowing that God’s goodness doesn’t change regardless of the outcome.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: Um, I think if.
We’re expecting good things and good things in our life become God things where they have the ability to shape how we feel about God. Depending on the [00:46:00] outcome, then I’d say we have a misplaced hope.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: And a misplaced joy. Um, but when our hope and joy are in the Lord. We’re promised that we won’t be disappointed.
Um, not that we won’t ever experience disappointment, but we won’t be disappointed in, um. In our relationship with him.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: When he’s the prize.
Jacqueline: Absolutely. I love that. And the versa just keeps coming to my mind as, you know, set your thoughts on good things, right. Good things. Yes. Things that are pure noble.
A good one. Um,
Nicole: yes. Philippians for eight. Right. It’s a great,
Jacqueline: yeah. And even too, I think of Job, I’m doing a study on job right now and, you know, job I think at one point mentions the thing I feared the most has come upon me, right? Yes. And it’s just like the Bible has a lot to say about, you know, the power of your, of your thoughts and your words.
So, mm-hmm. It’s just so, so powerful. But, uh, you should check out the episode I did with Joe too. ’cause there’s a lot of crossover in what you [00:47:00] and I are talking about as well with our Yeah,
Nicole: I’d love, love to hear. It is a great
Jacqueline: one. Um, wow, Nicole, I can’t believe we’re almost, it’s almost 1130. I feel like I’ve only been talking to you for like 10 minutes, but I just.
I, I love you. I love your work. Um, I’m so grateful for your story. Um, I know this conversation is gonna help so many people. I do wanna be conscious of your time, but a few last questions for you. Sure. What would you want, if, if I could say, Nicole, what’s one thing you want a reader to take away from, from all your work?
What would it be? Oh, oh, um.
Nicole: I mean, this is a theme that we’ve talked about from many different angles, but I’ll, I’ll repeat it here again. That, um, the recipe for joy is really getting to know God and, and looking at his faithfulness to you and your story. And that will fuel, that will give you courage to embrace what’s good right now, but also give you a [00:48:00] curiosity for what.
What might God do?
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Nicole: Uh, what if it’s wonderful? That’s, that’s my pivot phrase and that’s why it’s the title of my book to, to help me plug into that, um, that I can have the courage to ask that question because of who God is and who he’s been to me and who I know he’ll be to you. Um, and what if it’s wonderful is kind of my pocket phrase to.
To remember
Jacqueline: that. I love that. And coming back full circle, I mentioned that, you know, writers write the books that they need to, to hear the most. Yes. But if I were to ask you, Nicole, if you could tell yourself one thing in a very hard season, one of the hardest seasons of your life that you’ve experienced, who you are now as a person, knowing what you know now, if you could sit with that, you know, your, your old self, what would you tell her?
Nicole: Oh, goodness. So many things. Um.[00:49:00]
This is something my mom has shared with me a lot that’s been. A helpful concept and phrase for me to keep in mind. I think because I was so used to protecting myself with performance. Um, meaning if I could just be good enough or I can just show God that I’ve learned from this, maybe this won’t happen to me again, or maybe I don’t have to be in pain anymore, which shows you.
How I grew up trying to feel significant and safe was through my own performance. And, and my mom has always encouraged me, invite God into the feelings you actually have instead of trying to have the perfect feelings for God. So if you’re hurting, let him sit with you in the feelings that you actually have.
Uh, you don’t have to perform for God or other people. Um. The, the first [00:50:00] truth that you can cling to is that he’s present with you where you are, um, and that he’s connecting with you where you are. Uh, instead of correcting you or telling you your feelings are wrong or yeah, or bad. Um, so he’s sitting with you where you are.
Jacqueline: I love that. And I think too, sitting with someone, that to me is one of the most powerful things someone can do when someone’s going through. You know, a tragedy or Yeah. Or a period of grief is just, and someone did that with me not too long ago, but just sit and just not say anything and just be in your presence, I think is mm-hmm.
So, so powerful. So I love that.
Nicole: Yeah. The ministry of being with Yeah. Is highly underrated. So true. So true.
Jacqueline: Well, Nicole, where can listeners find you? Where can they pick up a copy of your awesome books? Sure.
Nicole: So you can buy, uh, the books, anywhere, books are sold. My first book is kind of the backstory to what If it’s wonderful.
[00:51:00] Uh, that’s called From Lost to Found. What if it’s Wonderful came next? They don’t need to be read in order. Um, and then my Bible study is daring Joy. Um, and that’s been really fun for groups to do. If your Bible study’s looking for, uh, a group experience, um. That’s been, I’ve heard a lot of good feedback on that one.
Um. What if it’s wonderful? Does have a discussion guide in the back if your book club is looking for a book. Uh, but you can buy those on Amazon or wherever you like to buy books. My website is Nicole Zaki, Z-A-S-O-W-S-K i.com. And the social media I hang out the most is on Instagram, so I’m just at Nicole Suzowski.
Awesome. There.
Jacqueline: I’ll be linking all of those in the show notes. I’m actually going to propose during Joy to my women’s church’s Bible study because Amazing. It’s 10 out of 10, so I absolutely love that. Awesome. My very last question for you, Nicole, and this is always [00:52:00] my favorite one to ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to you?
Nicole: Ooh, what a great question. You know, because I’m a therapist, um, I’m, I’m often asked, you know, what does it mean to be mentally and emotionally healthy? And I, I don’t think our culture gets this one, right. So I’ll, I’ll answer. What does it mean to be well and strong, um, in this, in the same way? I think it’s the ability to, to feel the full range of human experience and emotion, but to be able to act on what you know to be true, to act on your convictions and values.
Instead of react to how you feel, so to be honest about your feelings, but to be able to speak truth to them and act on that truth
Jacqueline: so profound. I love that. Nicole, this has been so fun. I really am looking forward to having you back on at some point soon. Again, I can’t believe we’ve been chatting for an hour, but, um, I know I’m, I’m beyond excited to share this with listeners and I’m so excited that this is the first one to come out after, you [00:53:00] know, my three month, uh, weave of, of podcasting.
Yes.
Nicole: Yes. Thanks for having me. I really, really love this conversation and look forward to doing it again.
Jacqueline: I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you would like to support the show, please subscribe. Leave a rating and review and share it with others. Be sure to visit well and strong.com to access notes from the show and to stay current with new content. I’m so grateful you joined me. Be well and be strong.
