Let’s be honest — we’ve all had those days when our emotions feel overwhelming or our thoughts just won’t slow down. It’s frustrating, right? Especially when we catch ourselves thinking, “I shouldn’t feel like this,” and yet… we still do. These emotional moments tend to ripple into so many areas of our lives — from our relationships to how we view ourselves and even how we show up at work.
But here’s the good news: feeling our emotions is perfectly okay. What truly matters is how we respond to them.
Today’s guest is Dr. Alison Cook — a psychologist, podcast host, and the author of several books, including her latest, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way: Name What’s Hard, Tame Your Guilt, and Transform Self-Sabotage into Brave Action. For the past two decades, Alison has helped women, couples, and leaders process emotional pain, build inner confidence, and live more fully into their God-given identity.
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Jacqueline: All right. Perfect. Well, Dr. Allison, so I first heard about you on Stephanie Mawson’s podcast Girls Night, which was among the very first podcast I ever listened to back in 2020. I had the honor of having her on this show several months ago, but I’m an avid listener of her podcast, and when I heard her episode with you.
I was immediately captivated by you and all of your work, and your podcast, the best of you, has become one of my new favorites to listen to. So I [00:03:00] immediately was like, I need to have this woman on my show, um, just to talk to you for my own sake. But I know that my listeners are certainly gonna benefit from this conversation as well.
Alison Cook: Oh, I love that. I love that connection. That’s so fun to hear. I’m, I’m so grateful that, that you found me that way and, and it’s so great to, to hear that. I love that. I.
Jacqueline: So I recently picked up one of your books. I shouldn’t feel this way and I could not put it down.
And as you can see, I have marked it up pretty, pretty extensively. Um, I’m one of those people that pretty much writes in in every single book they read just to help, uh, you know, retain information. But I’m so curious what inspired you to write this book?
Alison Cook: Well, primarily my own complicated emotions. I’ve always been someone, even today, you know, at my rip old age here, of having done this work for a long time, I’m very aware of what’s going on inside of me, and I’m very aware of it, almost like I say in the book as a tangled up knot. Like I just have learned to notice, oh, I [00:04:00] have that feeling of, oh, something is tangled up inside of me and when I didn’t know what to do with that.
You know, it’s like walking around with a limp or walking around with a part of you that doesn’t work and it doesn’t help you to make good decisions when you’re not clear on what’s happening inside of you. And so I really wrote it primarily outta my own experience, trying to figure out how to untangle the knots of my own inner life.
Also, working with clients over the years. Right? Just learning how to. I liken it to a necklace. Actually this necklace I have on has had a knot in it. You know, it, it just gets knotted very easily, you know, and I liken it to that, that really slow, delicate work of slowing down to untangle the knots, because then things are so clear and they flow so smoothly.
But when you don’t know how to do it, it’s really hard.
Jacqueline: That’s so true. I know. I love your statement. Clarity gives birth to action. I like highlighted that and I, I actually wrote it down ’cause it’s, it’s so, so true. Um, and I love that analogy with the [00:05:00] necklace that’s so spot on. Let’s get right into it though. Your book addresses difficult emotions that many people experience, how would you define healthy versus unhealthy emotional responses?
Alison Cook: Great question. So any emotion is not bad or good. And so the first thing I would say is an unhealthy response is to immediately shame yourself for an emotion. But it’s also. Unhealthy to immediately, and this is where sometimes our culture doesn’t get at the nuance of this. It’s also not super helpfully helpful to immediately validate.
Every emotion, right? And so either of those extremes is problematic. So hence the title of the book. I shouldn’t feel this way. Well, that’s not a helpful response. I am angry. I am really annoyed at this friend of mine. Or I am really bitter about what happened at work. That’s just a feeling. It’s neither good nor bad.
It’s not something to shame myself for. It’s also not something to act on right away. And [00:06:00] that’s where the book goes, right? It, it walks you through a process. The first step is just. Oh, it’s a noticing. It’s, I’m bitter, I’m jealous. I am mad. I am lonely. That first noticing. So a healthy response to an emotion initially is just to notice it.
It is. It is what I feel. And not to act on it, but also not to shame ourselves for it.
Jacqueline: Right. I love that. I know one thing my dad has always shared with me whenever I find myself in the midst of, you know, challenging emotions is he always says emotions are not rational. Right. They just are. And, and I loved that because it’s so true. And to your point, we do shame ourselves if we are feeling jealous or envious or bitter.
Um, rather than asking ourselves, you know, why am I feeling like this? And, and really understanding like where those. Thoughts are where those emotions are actually stemming from. Right.
Alison Cook: Exactly.
Jacqueline: And what are some of like those root causes behind feelings like [00:07:00] shame and, and fear? You know, the most common ones that people struggle with.
Alison Cook: Yeah, I mean, many of us just simply weren’t taught what we, you know, psychologists, we call it emotional intelligence, which is this whole skillset that many of us just weren’t taught, I don’t think. Most of us, I think it’s changing a little bit, but certainly in my generation we weren’t. We didn’t. We weren’t taught this in our families, we weren’t taught this in schools.
What, how to have emotional intelligence and emotional intelligence comes with two features. One is the ability to understand your emotions, and two, it’s the understanding of how to speak constructively. I. Keyword on behalf of emotions, right? So think about our physical bodies, right? We have to learn a new skill.
If I wanna learn how to play tennis, there’s a whole lot of skills I have to learn, and then I’ve gotta practice those skills. Well, it’s not that different with our emotional life, with our emotional intelligence. It’s a whole part of us that requires some skill to learn. And that’s what I’m trying to do in this book.
So that’s the baseline as a lot of us just weren’t learn, weren’t taught, but then depending on our families of origin, [00:08:00] some of us had higher levels of emotional awareness than others. Sounds like, based on what you’re saying about your dad, there was some emotional awareness in your family. Emotions weren’t necessarily shamed, but many people grew up in families where those emotions were shamed.
You can’t feel that way. You can’t, or at the very least, it’s not only that you can’t feel that way, but you can’t express that feeling. Right. And so we learn kind of through even the best of parents maybe didn’t know how to. Help us understand the emotion, not again, necessarily act on the emotion, but understand it.
And then lastly, we do there is the reality of trauma of, you know, folks having really, really painful experiences, whether in childhood or adulthood that have never been healed. And that can lead to nervous system responses that are disproportionate from the event that is occurring in the present. I can unpack that a little bit if you want me to, but there’s a lot of ways that our [00:09:00] emotional kind of barometer can go sideways.
Jacqueline: No, I’d love that. And I do wanna touch on the nervous system dysregulation part at some point, but I did have a question about the emotional like responses. I’m so curious. In the clients that you’ve worked with, have you noticed like anything like with culture and the way folks express emotions? ‘
Alison Cook: Absolutely, and I’m so glad you brought it up because there, that, there is that overlay too of how different cultures deal with, some cultures really value and honor the big emotions. Some cultures really sideline and, and kind of have a, have an almost silencing effect. Doesn’t have to be shaming, but a ooh, emotions shouldn’t be expressed.
And so. Those are nuances of how we pick up our own understanding of an emotions. And again, there’s no right or wrong there, but we do need to, as we become emotional intelligent, to recognize our own defaults, our own conditioning, how our emotions impact others regardless and how we wish to. You know, again, I always think about [00:10:00] emotions like.
We want to be speaking on behalf of our emotions versus speaking from them and for different people that’ll look very differently. Right? You, you think about relationships and some relationships, the the two people who are part of that relationship are okay with. A little bit more intensity, a little bit more fire in the emotions when we’re speaking on behalf of them.
Right? Whereas for some people, it’s like, oh, no, I, I can’t, I, I need it to be very measured. I need everything to come out right. Again, there isn’t necessarily a right or wrong as it comes to relationship, but there is a need for a negotiation and a and a norm setting that works for both people, and that does include some ability to regulate your own emotions.
Jacqueline: Right. So, so true. Yeah. I find this area so, so fascinating. If I wasn’t in the wellness space, I certainly would be in the psychology space because there’s just so much depth, you know, to all of these topics. Um, one thing you do mention in your book that I, I highlighted is that [00:11:00] you mentioned you believe that the noise in our minds and our inability to tend to it is one of the most under-addressed, under-diagnosed, and under named threats to the health of ourselves and our relationships.
That really, really stuck with me. And I just started thinking, you know, there’s noise 24 7, even in my life, I feel like I’m always listening and you’ve had podcast episodes on this too, but
Alison Cook: Yep,
Jacqueline: we’re constantly stimulated, right? Whether it’s listening to a podcast or music or talking to someone. And I started to, to really kind of reflect on that just from, from my own life.
And I’ve realized that. I go down those avenues because at the end of the day, I am lonely. Right? And if I could feel like I’m constantly listening to someone or something like that is my kind of crutch, so to speak. And you know, I, I think it’s, it could be a good thing, right? But when you’re constantly stimulated, it’s not really great for your mind and it doesn’t leave you room to pause and reflect, on those emotions.
So. With that, and [00:12:00] this is kind of a question for myself and I know a lot of other listeners are probably struggling with this, is how do we actually learn to sit and understand our feelings rather than suppress them, ignore them, try to escape them? And that’s, that’s the golden question. And I’m sure everyone has a different approach to this, but I’m, I’m curious what you’ve seen has, has worked for your clients.
Alison Cook: Yeah, you’re saying something so important when you’re describing that tendency to have a podcast in our ear, have noise in our ear as a form of connection. That’s a really. Insightful comment, and I agree with you and I see that, and it’s not all bad, but I like to say to people, there are actually three relationships that we need to cultivate a relationship with others.
That connection with others, a connection with our spirituality, with something outside of us, whether that’s God, whether that’s, you know, for whatever that looks like for people and a relationship with ourselves and that relationship with ourselves is where. We do need to be able to untangle from [00:13:00] the voices and the noise of others, even just momentarily.
And I do think it’s harder and harder in our world. It can be as simple as taking a walk. For a few moments. It doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t have to be, I want, I don’t want people, you know, I’m not saying we all have to go be monks, you know, and sit in a cave in silence for, for months on end. But we do need to have a rhythm of, because what we’re doing in those moments is attuning to our own nervous system, to our own bodies, to the cues our own emotions are sending us.
I’m sad, you know? And. Oh my goodness, I’m sad. And then, oh, now that I realize that I can call a friend. And say, I’m sad. So we have greater intimacy and that’s very different from just keeping the noise on so that we never have to face the sadness. And so we need those rhythms of taking walks. Sometimes it’s a symbol in the busier seasons of my life when I had kids and I was in the car [00:14:00] a lot and, and carpool lanes a lot just turning off, just having the discipline of when I’m in the car for these 20 minutes, not listening to the radio, not listening to a podcast.
Because I’m moving, it’s contained, but it’s my time to just be with myself and notice what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking about? What are the messages I’m telling myself? So just that discipline every, you know, just a little bit of a rhythm is a better word of being with ourselves and learning that it’s okay that it’s not gonna overwhelm us.
But that it gives us that moment just to check in, just like we would with a friend or a child, you know, where just a quick check in of how are you really doing?
What are you really thinking about? That’s what I mean by wanting us to just have these moments, uh, with ourselves.
Jacqueline: Right. That’s so good. And that lends to the concept of, of what you call minding your mind, which I also love. And that is what you say is like noticing and reflecting our, our inner [00:15:00] dialogues. How do we tactically do that? And you highlight like this three step, what is it, name, frame, and brave process.
Could you elaborate on that? ’cause I love that so much.
Alison Cook: yeah. I mean, the first step to all of this is the naming. Just getting used to noticing without shame. Oh, I’m, I’m worked up. I am lonely, I’m distracted. I, you know, even a naming could be. I cannot stop listening to podcasts. I cannot be by myself. That’s a naming. It’s a noticing. And in that moment, there’s this moment almost a, you know, just a papers with distance of di, what we call differentiation, where more of our prefrontal cortex comes online.
We have more access to different parts of our brain. The part of us that’s firing. The amygdala and the part of us that’s meaning making, right? Just that act of naming, of going, this is what’s happening right now. That moment of awareness, that first step is a huge step toward clarity, right? Even if I can’t stop myself from [00:16:00] doing it, I am aware that I am, and it introduces just a subtle shift to where the next time there might be that pause where I go, why?
Maybe I. Just delay that for a few moments. Right. And so that first step or, or what, you know, if it’s, I’m angry, right? And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m gonna write it down in my journal and I’m gonna come back to it tomorrow, right? So that first step of just awareness, right? That’s the naming.
And then I talk about this whole step called framing. And as a therapist, this is where we live, right? It’s helping people, right? And I’ve had people read the book and go, wow. And I’m like, but you can do this. We can also do this for ourselves. And I’ll give you an example that I use in the book, but the, the, the naming is I am angry.
I just came home and my roommate left stuff all over. Or, you know, my kids left stuff all over the house and I’m mad, right? That’s the naming. So we can lash out, we can yell, we can pick a fight, [00:17:00] we can suppress. None of that is very helpful. The alternative is we take a minute, I call it, it could be a pause, it could be a, you know, a, a walk around the block.
It could be a deep breath. It might take a few days, depending on how deep to really, what’s really going on here. Have this, and these are examples of framing questions. Have I ever asked the people I live with to pick up their stuff? Right? And if I haven’t, what’s stopping me?
Jacqueline: Right.
Alison Cook: So that’s gonna lead to a different brave action step.
The second, have I been asking for weeks and they’re blatantly disrespecting me? Well, that’s a whole different problem, right? And so the naming of the anger is the first step. The framing of it is, what’s really going on here? Give myself a minute to go a little deeper with the reality of the situation.
’cause then when I do take a brave step toward action, it’s gonna be way better, way more effective, way clearer, and it’s gonna be grounded in. What I know to be true of what’s happening in this [00:18:00] moment.
Jacqueline: Right. And one thing too, you also talk about that I loved is this concept of like the holy reframe, right? And I, one thing I’ve grown very passionate about Dr. Allison is just incorporating faith into my. Approach to wellness, and that obviously applies to psychology. In fact, have you heard of Joe Hargreaves?
Does that name ring a
bell? You would. You would really like her work. She has, I think her Instagram handles the faith-filled therapist. I had her on the podcast a few weeks ago. In fact, our episode was titled Managing Your Mind. But essentially what she does is she just like. She preaches how biblical truths, you know, reflect like what science is finding today in terms of neuroplasticity and rewiring and you know, this very well in terms of, you know, rewiring your mind and taking your thoughts captive.
And she’s kind of like, a mini Caroline Leaf, I think. Um, but she’s incredible. But could you just, touch on like this whole concept of the holy reframe and how that, you know, may change the way we approach that process.
Alison Cook: I see that step of framing. So first of all, I said all that. The naming [00:19:00] is such an act of partnering with God to name what’s true. Right? God doesn’t ask us to, and many of us, if you grew up with a faith background, that can be part of why we shame ourselves for emotions. Well, I, I wanna be a good person.
I don’t wanna feel mad at somebody. Right? But naming is just, oh God, this is. This is what’s true. I have a exercise at the end of the book. I call it Comm God. And so when you’re in your car minding your mind and you’re paying attention and you’re like, I’m so mad, or I, ugh, I, I, I will gently start to add a comm God, it just becomes a conversation.
I’m so mad, God, I’m so hurt. God, it’s all when reminding our mind, it’s all a conversation with God of naming what’s true. The framing step, we see it all throughout the Bible, these, these holy in-betweens, these spaces in between, right where we take a minute to invite the deeper, the deeper wisdom. The deeper wisdom that God wants us to have that’s not reactive [00:20:00] and it is backed up by science, as you’re saying.
It’s that moment where we allow our nervous system to calm. Now. We’re not numbing ourselves. We’re allowing for all of what we’ve just taken in to be metabolized through our bodies, through our nerve, neuro nervous system, how God designed us so that we get to a deeper, more grounded wisdom, which is I am angry and I am being disrespected.
That is true. What’s also true is I don’t want to be cruel, so how do I now take an action that honors both of those things? Right? This is true, and this is also true even when we’re setting boundaries with people who are harming us, and I get into that in later chapters of the book, even when there has been harm and there has been toxicity.
This is what’s true and also this is what’s true and I want to relate to other people from that grounded place of truth and I do believe that is a very spiritual I.
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, look at the book of Psalms, right? Like David cries out to [00:21:00] God, you know, and he’s very emotional and I think that just lets us know that it is okay, right? To have all these emotions. Like one minute he’s praising God and the next he’s like,
Alison Cook: yes.
Jacqueline: all this to happen?
I don’t understand.
Alison Cook: Yes, and, and God can handle all of that, right? Even when we’re in the middle of a temper tantrum, you know, that we don’t wanna have, and so that’s the other thing when you talk about connection, right? When we don’t spend those times unplugged from other people, from devices, we are missing out on those intimate moments with God and God.
If and if nothing else starts right where we are. We don’t have to get ourselves to a good place to talk to God. It’s right where we are. Whatever’s happening, that’s that. Comma, God, this is where I’m at God, and that’s that intimacy that is just so, so deeply satisfying.
Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that so much. Another thing too, Dr. Allison, that Joe and I spoke about, and I actually spoke about the same topic with my Aunt Marianne, who is among the very first [00:22:00] guests I ever had on my podcast. And that was the, this whole concept of, fact versus truth, right? And we looked at it in the context of like, you know, a medical report, for example, like this is what someone’s blood work says, but like the truth is that you are healed.
And even with thoughts, like Joe was saying, you know, if you have a thought that does not line up with the Bible, like the second you have it and that’s how you also, or I guess is a way to deal with intrusive thoughts, is to just put it up next to scripture and say. Is this true? Like, is this good? Is this lovely?
Is this a, you know, good report? And if it’s not, then you just have to reject it. Um, so with that, I am, I’m so curious too, ’cause a lot of people do struggle with this, myself included, is intrusive thoughts, right? When we have intrusive thoughts, what is an appropriate like process to address those? And I think the, the irony is that the times I experience intrusive thoughts the most, Dr.
Allison are, when everything is quote unquote, seemingly like. Fine. You know, like it could be in a happy moment. It could be in a moment that I’m just, you know, at ease and all of a sudden that thought will [00:23:00] just pop into my mind. Um, and it’s often the same thought. Right. And I’m just curious, like, what has been effective, um, maybe for you personally or again, in the, in the people that you’ve
Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline: in terms of strategies.
Alison Cook: I think that. When we’re struggling with intrusive thoughts, with anxious thoughts, the body becomes so important because sometimes meeting thoughts with other thoughts isn’t helpful.
Because we’re stuck in our minds.
And so what I’ve found with some folks who really struggle with this is to remember to go that your body, that in psychology, we have this, I, we have these.
Um, and, and this is also supported by scripture. Top down, bottom up approaches. Top down approaches are replace the thought with a truer thought. Very effective. But for many people, especially when there’s been trauma, especially when there’s, um, kind of a, a disembodied when we’re, when our nervous system is firing, what we know now is that the, [00:24:00] our thoughts aren’t just in our minds, right?
They come from deeper places. So when our nervous system is firing in ways that are creating some negative thoughts or some critical thoughts, we also have these bottom up approaches, which are, which means. Oh, I need to ground myself. And there’s some really great research backed exercises for taking those bottom up approaches of, again, nature is huge.
Being outside and meditating on something very earthy. What do I see in front of me? What color do I see? What are objects that I see? Um, which again, we see in the Psalms kind of looking to the, the natural world. Um, deep breathing can be very helpful, just literally releasing breath through the nervous system.
So there are. Those bottom up approaches that don’t necessarily attack the thought head on, that that can, they’re two different ways, but if that isn’t working, those bottom up approaches of calming yourself, soothing, your nervous system [00:25:00] can lead to a release which evaporates the thoughts. So those are, that’s another way.
And I, I do have a chapter at, in the book on those bottom up approaches for folks specifically who, it’s almost like. They have such overactive thinking parts,
Jacqueline: Yes.
Alison Cook: right? And, and so you can almost outthink your own thought replacement strategies.
Jacqueline: right.
Alison Cook: So there’s a different way to kind of calm the nervous system to keep those thoughts from firing.
Jacqueline: Yeah, so interesting. And that reminds me too, of the, the concept of thinking traps, right? That you talk about. What would you define that as for listeners who haven’t yet read your book, and how can we escape those?
Alison Cook: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, these are just cognitive biases that influence our emotions, and there’s some that are, that have just been studied for years, but, you know, all or nothing thinking, you know, if this wasn’t the best podcast interview ever, I’m a complete failure. That’s an [00:26:00] example of all or nothing thinking it’s not true. But I have to first be able to name that. Okay. I feel, and I’m, I’m just making this a hypothetical in real time, I don’t really feel this way, but let’s say I feel I am, I’m just a failure. I have to first notice that without shame and then connect to, well, I have to reframe it, that holy reframe. Well, just because it wasn’t the best thing I’ve ever done doesn’t mean it was a failure.
Maybe it was good enough, you know? And so that’s one, uh, there’s, there’s just so many, um. Uh, of these, uh, you know, false binaries. It’s either or when, so often it’s both, and I love my spouse and I’m frustrated with them.
Both of those things are true, right? and so.
Learning to identify those can be really helpful because then we even just saying that for, for clients or for folks to be like, listen, you can be angry with someone and really love them.
Calms that nervous system brings more [00:27:00] creativity online, brings more spaciousness online to where we find our way to have a much healthier conversation with that person. So those thinking traps are really where we, when we get stuck, almost all, always, they’re sort of false dichotomies.
Jacqueline: Have you found an association? Between, I guess personality type and thinking trap. So like, would you say ’cause I, again, I’m sure there’s so much research on this, but would you say that like someone who might be like Type A perfectionist would be more inclined to have that, like all or nothing mentality.
Alison Cook: Uh, yes, there, there’s certainly, so there’s sort of a big five. There’s a lot of research on big five personality traits. I did a podcast episode on it where there’s certain, um, yes, very, um, perfectionistic types, more frankly, high sensitive people who are very aware, um, can. Take in more data. Um, so there, there’s certainly, there’s always, you can always bring in the Enneagram.
There are different types, personality types on the Enneagram, Enneagram that [00:28:00] are more conducive, um, to some of these thinking traps. Um, and that’s why we need a multimodal approach. For some people, the replacement, the, oh, this just isn’t true, like matching that works. But for others there needs to be more of a nervous system intervention, a nervous
Jacqueline: Right. Yeah. Even too. You mentioned journaling before. You are gonna think I’m crazy, Dr. Allison, but I have about five separate journals. No, I do not write in them every day, but they’re all kind of just dedicated to like different parts of my life. And Stephanie actually kind of inspired me to do that because it just helps me like.
Compartmentalize the different areas of my life, right? So like my career, another thing could be like personal and family. And just the act I’ve found of writing my thoughts on paper creates so much clarity. Right? And I think that’s why like just having a conversation with a friend or you know, your parent or a therapist is so beneficial because I think over 80% of it is just getting the thoughts out of [00:29:00] your
Alison Cook: yeah, a hundred percent. And that’s why the research on journaling is so powerful. We are literally, you’re getting those thoughts out of your head. And the thing about relationships processing with a friend is it’s the quality. Of the connection. Are you processing it with someone who’s listening, honoring, holding space?
Are you processing it with someone who’s jumping in to give advice prematurely? Who’s telling you what to think? Who’s telling you what to feel? Right? So that quality also is really important. If you’re someone who deals with a lot of thinking traps, right? Those relationships are invaluable. When you go to someone and say, especially with shame, I feel shame,
right?
For that friend or that loved one to say, listen, I get it, to hold it and also help you see it. From a different Holy reframe.
Jacqueline: Right. Kind of on the same topic of thinking traps and, and intrusive thoughts. Folks who deal with rumination, right. And thinking I should have done that and constantly like replaying past
events. Would you, would you consider like a similar approach to, to addressing that as you would with [00:30:00] intrusive thoughts?
Or is there anything different that folks could, could implement?
Alison Cook: You know, there’s the clinical part of me goes to, I don’t, I wanna be really careful how we’re talking about this. ’cause for people who really do have intrusive thoughts that are under the category of OCD, where they, that’s a very different thing where folks, um, I did just did a PO really, uh, fascinating podcast interview with a guy who’s a therapist and also has dealt with OCD.
Jacqueline: I saw that I have yet to hear about it, but that’s actually why I wanted to ask you to explain like what is the difference between OCD and then just common intrusive thoughts that everyone,
Alison Cook: He talks about that on the episode, and I don’t wanna speak for him ’cause it’s not my area of, of expertise, but it’s a great episode where he describes it’s um, it’s an ongoing pattern, right? That. In some ways they, they, sometimes they, they’re called sticky thoughts, and in some ways, identifying the sticky thought and really being compassionate with yourself through it doesn’t necessarily [00:31:00] mean it will go away.
Right? And so there’s that category for some folks, right? Then there’s a category for folks where it is rooted in a thinking trap, and it’s really about identifying and recognizing the pattern. Shifting the pattern through a cognitive intervention. Um, and then also I would just say from my, my, I’m trained in a, a modality called IFS Internal Family Systems.
This idea that we have different parts of us, I tend to work a lot with folks who have overthinking parts, ruminating parts, and those are parts of us that work. They think that we can solve everything. Intellectually, rationally, analytically, they’re overly an, it’s a superpower and it becomes an Achilles heel,
right? And so the, in that instance, what I work with people on is setting gentle boundaries with that part of us. Why are you working so hard when they overwork? When we start [00:32:00] ruminating, when we start obsessing, when we start overthinking, it’s a cue. I’m, it’s almost always a cue. I’m scared.
Jacqueline: Yes.
Alison Cook: I’m vulnerable. I have fear.
And so it’s that work that’s, that’s the work I primarily do with folks is getting at the vulnerability underneath, because when we’re working too hard, we’re overthinking, we’re ruminating. It’s almost all often, it’s almost always because there’s a fear underneath and we have to face the fear, oh, I’m afraid.
I don’t actually have ultimate control here. I can’t think my way through the perfect solution. I have to do the best I can and calculate the risk, and honor the fear.
Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. And that just reminds me too of something in your book you spoke about, you know, the concept of surrender. And that has been such a game changer for me. And I don’t know if you know anything about my background, Dr. Allison, but the reason I started well and strong is because my mom was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer back in
2018. Um, so it’s been a journey the past several years, [00:33:00] but. I originally started it to share more about like this integrative approach to cancer, which I still stand by, but. Everything we’ve been through over the past several years has just made me realize that like it’s not so much about the treatments folks pursue as much as it is about trusting God with the outcome, right?
And like God uses medicine and, and again like my mission with well and strong has shifted more as I mentioned earlier, to more of a faith-based approach. But I think like we are to do what we can do, right? The Bible says like once you’ve done all stand. So I think like that is important, but at the same time it’s so important to recognize that like.
God is sovereign and he is in control of the outcome. And whenever I do have any type of like ruminating thought about a past medical decision or you know, the should haves or would haves, I think I just, I recite my verses. I recite Romans 8 28. I recite like God is guiding our, you know, like I. God is, God is in control.
And there’s so much peace in knowing that. And even when you apply that to like thoughts, like [00:34:00] God knows all of the thoughts that we will ever have, and he says like all of our days are written in his book before one yet came to be. And that gives me so much peace that like there’s nothing that I’m gonna do that will surprise God, right?
So just like grounding yourself in that truth has really been a game changer for me.
Alison Cook: Oh, Jacqueline, that is so beautiful and so profound. We, there’s such a freedom in the truth that we are not God. I am not God. I do not have all the power in the universe to fix this painful situation for myself, my family member. And I think those overthinking parts of us at times because they’re scared, wanna play God,
I. If I could come up with the perfect, and, and it’s that general reminder, again, non-shaming. Oh my gosh, I have to do, do my best and let go of the rest because I, I simply have a finite capacity to understand what’s happening [00:35:00] here. And it’s not that we. Don’t do our part. I hear you very clearly, but we absolutely have to be able to have that open hand.
Right now, I, my open-handed, that’s another nervous system response. When we’re overthinking, sometimes I will do, if I can’t, I will open my hands like this, that, to remind myself.
Ultimately, God, this is yours. I’ve done my best. It’s now in your hands. And I do think that’s a spiritual kind of embodied way of honoring that can soften those parts of us that really genuinely at their best, are desperately trying to solve
Jacqueline: Right.
Alison Cook: a very painful situation.
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, exactly. And, and something too. I had my cousin on a couple weeks ago, and one thing she’s always shared with me, she’s another just great spiritual mentor and she always says, she’s like, I always ask myself, when I’m thinking about a past decision, she’s like, I always think like, but would I really have known the outcome of the other choice?
Like, that’s in another reality that like, we don’t actually know what would’ve happened [00:36:00] had we chose like. Chosen path B over path A. Like we think we do, but we, but we really don’t. And it just lends to the fact that like our minds really do play tricks on us. Right. And that’s why it’s, it’s, so important to just kind of like reel it in.
Like you are not your mind.
Alison Cook: No, and we are limited in our capacity and our knowing. I recently went through a situation where I had to make a really hard decision and was beating myself up that I didn’t know four years ago. Information that I know now,
Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cook: right? And it’s almost like I had to forgive myself for knowledge I couldn’t have had
when I was supposed to have it.
But there is that process of, again, that spiritual process with God saying, God, I didn’t know. I didn’t know, and I’m I know now. And you know, just kind of coming to peace
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Alison Cook: with that, that, that God stands outside of all time and place.
Jacqueline: Right. and, it also too, it [00:37:00] just like I found too, and I’m, I’m 29 years old, so I still have, you know, quite a ways to go. But I found in, in my, you know, spiritual journey over the past several years especially, is that. It comes down to knowing the character of God. Right. And I think like if we truly are seeking him and seeking his will and we, you know, are ambivalent about something, which I know you touch on in your book as well, like we can trust that he’s going to guide our
steps. Into whatever he already has planned. Right? Like even, ’cause we won’t ever a hundred percent know like all the facts in any given situation. Like we have to just choose to walk forward. Um, and God says that he guides our steps. Right? Not necessarily when we’re just like standing still and stagnant. We
Alison Cook: Right. God directs. I remember a wise spiritual. Mentor used said to me when I was younger, a little bit younger than you, but but much younger than I am now, and I would be immobilized
with
Jacqueline: fear,
Alison Cook: paralysis about decisions. And he
said to me, God directs a person in motion.[00:38:00]
Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that.
Alison Cook: thought, that’s, you gotta take some steps.
And that’s brave. That’s where courage comes in and, and God wants us to learn. That’s why I like the, the idea of partnership, God to kind of. Work with us as we move. He wants us to grow and, and take risks and he’ll catch us when we fall. Um, but yeah, I really, uh, when you give me that context of what you’ve been dealing with the last few years, I really get it.
I really get why your mind might’ve been overactive, overprocessing, and bless that part of you. Understood. Right. And also God is inviting this. Ultimately we’ve got, you’ve gotta surrender and it’s, it’s, it’s a real learning curve, but it’s a, it’s a great place to be when we can open handedly with God.
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, I love that. One thing that just sparked a thought, I wanted to touch on this earlier when you were talking [00:39:00] about naming emotions, but in terms of behaviors, right? We have numbing behaviors and you say that numbing is the opposite of naming. What are some examples of those numbing behaviors?
’cause I feel like, I mean there there are so many, right? So just if you could highlight some, because I feel like folks are gonna be like, yep, I do this all the
Alison Cook: Yeah, and I really try to make sure I, I talk about there’s conscious, intentional numbing that is sometimes healthy, right? And then there’s, when we’re just completely avoiding, and I’ll give you some examples. So numbing behaviors that go the, the, the kind of low hanging fruit, you know, could be booze, it could be, you know, drugs.
That’s sort of the. But, but for many of us, it’s binging Netflix, it’s binging podcasts. It’s constantly keeping the noise in it’s, uh, social media. Um, it could be food, it could be, um, shopping.
It could be, you know, so there’s a, just a range right of, of ways that we shut down painful emotions. And as a fellow overthinker, as a [00:40:00] fellow fellow, you know. I relate to a lot of what you’re saying. Sometimes I strategically tell myself, I’ve got a lot on my mind. I need to not think about it after 6:30 PM
And so for me, at in the evenings, I really choose, I watch shows, I take walks with my husband. I, I in, that’s not numbing, that’s strategically calming, soothing myself, right?
I’ve learned that over time. Numbing back in the day for me before I was doing that was just never dealing with the overthinking. But, um, so instead of actually recognizing, oh, I’m hurting, and so I’m overthinking over here to try to solve all my problems, and then just essentially when it got to be too much checking out through
like, you know, a binge, a binge Netflix.
But never really recognizing what was [00:41:00] happening that led to really unhealthy patterns,
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, it does. That reminds me too, they did a study, and this was like a long time ago, but. People trying to lose weight. And they had one group every time they went to the refrigerator after like 8:00 PM at night, they had one group stop before they ate anything, take out a journal and write down what they were feeling and wait five minutes and then see if they still went back versus the other group just, you know, letting them do whatever.
And they found that the former group. Lost weight because they weren’t like inclined to eat after they had addressed their emotions through, you know, journaling what they were. And that’s so powerful. And I mean, at night too, like if it’s a late night and I’m working and I’m stressed, like what is my first reaction go to
to the refrigerator? Um, but it’s like we do it so subconsciously,
Alison Cook: Yeah, it’s that what you just described there is that pause, it’s that pause to frame name. I wanna grab the bag of cookies and then the pause of what’s really going [00:42:00] on here? Do I need the bag of cookies or am I tired or lonely or scared, or just really tired and maybe I should
go to bed, you know? Um, it’s that pause that is so, so valuable.
Jacqueline: Right. And that last step of braving it, right. What are some ways to brave care?
Alison Cook: Ooh, we’ve covered some of them. I would say, I, I use the acronym of brave. So, um, boundaries, and that’s the low hanging fruit we tend to, but, and boundaries don’t just mean with other people. Boundaries can mean internal boundaries. So boundaries with myself, if I overthink and stress out after 8:00 PM do I need to set boundaries with my work so that I’m not right?
So there’s that part of boundaries. Um, and that’s, that’s not. Boundaries aren’t punitive. Boundaries are about care. Boundaries are about wholeness. Uh, range is the r increasing my range. Um, uh, uh, uh, instead of reaching for the bag of cookies, calling a [00:43:00] friend and, and really writing that down. What are five other things I could do instead of this thing that isn’t helpful to me?
Going for a walk. Um, increasing my range of responses. Um. A is assertiveness. Many of us struggle with asking for what we need, asking for help. Right? So that’s a way we can care for ourselves. I need help with this. Right? Um, the V is vitality. I, I really think it’s so important when we think about caring for ourselves to think about what, what makes us come alive?
What fuels our tank? What stops that overthinking? ’cause we’re having so much fun. We’re not. You know, worried, um, noticing those things. And I think that’s very biblical. Like what brings us joy, what
makes me feel God’s presence? You know, is it going to an am I had a woman on my podcast. She said, it’s going to amusement parks.
And I was like, good for you. That is not what it is for me. But that is awesome. You know, it could be a lot of different things. Um, she’s, I just forget everything. So I take my team to amusement parks once a month and I’m like, good for you. And then E [00:44:00] is our environment. How do we care for ourselves? How’s our environment are?
Do we have too much stimulus? Do we have not enough? Are are we going to the gym or going to coffee shops that are supporting our feeling of
wholeness? Or are they, there’s folks there, I don’t feel safe, or whatever.
Our church environment, right? What’s our church environment like? What’s our home environment like?
What’s our friendship environment like? And so what can I control in my environment so it’s not all on me? So those are like, and I go through lots of examples of tho those for everything kind of that we’re talking about. But um, there’s so many ways we can, and this is your area with wellness, you know, we can begin to build a really full whole life where we do, you know, my.
Husband will often say, based on the Psalms, every day we’ll have its share of work,
Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cook: toil, suffering and joy. Work. Meaning just work. That’s hard, but good toil, which is like, Ugh, I [00:45:00] don’t like doing this, but I gotta do, it might be the dishes, you know, it might be, um, suffering. Is this, I’m sad because I’m worried about someone.
Joy is. Oh, this was just a great moment. Like a good life includes all of those things in balance. In balance, right? So that we are caring for ourselves in proportion to what we need.
Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. I love that acronym and I love the vitality component, and I have found that that has been truly life changing
for me because honestly, the times where I’m not worrying about the future or ruminating about the past are the times where I’m fully immersed in the present. Right. And that to your point is like you said, when we’re doing things that we fully enjoy, be that.
Painting. You know, I bought a set of paintbrushes and I haven’t really painted since I was a child, and I found that I, I love painting and I, my dad got me an acoustic guitar a few years ago for my birthday, and I’m learning to play the guitar and I find that whenever, like I’m so again, immersed
Alison Cook: Yes.
Jacqueline: your mind doesn’t have [00:46:00] time to ruminate on on
Alison Cook: Exactly. Music is a huge one for their mind, nature, um, color, visuals, um, it just puts us in a different place in our mind, as you said, and that’s really powerful. That’s not numbing.
That’s healthy self-care. Healthy self-soothing.
Jacqueline: Right. And even to game nights, like I’ll, I
hosted a game night with a bunch of friends.
The other, you know, the other month playing monopoly. Just so fun activities that, you know, force you to be present.
Alison Cook: Good for you. Yeah. That’s beautiful.
Jacqueline: Yeah. one other thing too, just talking about presence, I have found Dr. Allison, and I’m sure you know this might resonate with you, but the older I get, the more quickly I feel like time is passing right.
And I feel like it’s so hard. Like it’s already, it’s, it’s may, it’s nearly May, which is wild to me. How can slow down time? In, in the sense of and, and I’ll, I’ll give you my 2 cents. I’ve found that when I’m more intentional about scheduling things into my calendar, right? Whether it’s a walk with a friend or [00:47:00] some type of event, I’ll remember the month or the week, like I’ll have something to remember it by. So that’s been helpful
rather than just this whirlwind of
like time passing so quickly. What are your thoughts on that?
Alison Cook: Boy, that’s the million dollar question, right? How do we
slow down time? Yes. I, I, I’m a big fan of rhythms and it’s kind of what you’re saying. I’m a big fan of weekly, monthly. Quarterly rhythms, we often think about the annual rhythms, but, and I mean rhythms like monthly moments. So for example, a monthly check-in with a friend that, something memorable that memorializes the passing of April, for example.
Or the passing, you know, like what is, um, and, and even quarterly seasonal. This, this, and not just, you know, I love, I love your five journals, not just as it relates to work, but as it relates to our relationships, our families, and we’re cementing. I think about, um, when God says, remember that word, remember is, you know, we’re re remember [00:48:00] memorialize, memorialize, what happened in April.
Of 2025. Just one thing. One thing, you know, what was that one thing? And just creating rhythms with a loved one. With a friend or in your own journal.
Jacqueline: Right,
Alison Cook: Just a moment. Again, that’s a part of minding your mind. That’s a part of paying attention of maybe every day at the end of the month. What was one thing about April that was joyful?
What was one thing about April that was really hard and just kind of memorializing those rhythms? I don’t know if it slows time down, but I do think it helps anchor us in the swift
current of time.
Jacqueline: Very true. What are your work rhythms? Because you do so much, and again, I shared with you before we, we really started rolling, that I’m doing well in strong, full-time now, and it has certainly been quite the adjustment. I don’t have a team. People ask who my team is. I respond with me, myself, and I, and I’m just managing so many different
things and it, it does get very overwhelming and every day is different.
I feel like I don’t necessarily have that. You know, rhythm or structure. [00:49:00] So I’m just curious what have you found to be successful?
Alison Cook: Yeah, it’s a great question. When you work for yourself, it’s easy to kind of, um, I’ve, I’ve recently in the last year had to develop better, um. skills around relying on other people and getting support. ’cause I
do tend to be a little bit self-reliant. I think you and I have some things in common,
Jacqueline: Yes, we do.
Alison Cook: um, uh, and some of that working is that, is part of that, that overthinking part of me kind of can be very productive. Right? So it’s not all bad, but learning. So I would say what I’ve learned is. A good friend of mine, a fellow therapist, her name is Andy Colbert. She wrote a book called Try Softer.
She often says this, and it’s really helpful to me.
She, I love, first of all that phrase try softer. Isn’t that a great phrase?
Jacqueline: that
Alison Cook: Yeah. And she talks a lot about the body and the nervous system, but one of the things she says that really sticks with me is she says, [00:50:00] work from love, not for. love And so, yeah. Right. So I’m always thinking, am I working fr if I’m starting to slip into working, like, oh, I gotta, which usually comes out.
I don’t wanna do this, but I’ve gotta, it’s like, okay, that’s a time to, that’s a naming, I’ve gotta name that and it’s time to take care of myself. And I’ve gotten really good at that, really good at noticing if, because that’s its cue that my rhythms are off. I’m pouring out more and I need to bring in.
And so it helps, it’s helped me, um, to have a partnership. My husband and I now, um, our kids, kids really help kind of with your rhythms at times, but also now that our kids have been gone, we really help each other and that accountability is very helpful. We stop at a certain time, we go out and take walks together.
So having him as sort of a coworker is really helpful. Um. But if you don’t have [00:51:00] that, I would say just, um, really noticing when am I working out of fear, out of need, out
of, as opposed to when am I working out of excitement to get the
Jacqueline: Yeah. Yeah. So true. I know, and I, I, I found you even with podcasting, I mean, I took a break for the past few weeks and I was home with my family, but I find that the second I start to feel like it becomes a chore is when I pull back and I ask myself, okay, why is, why am I feeling like this? Is it the nature of the topics?
Right? And that’s kind of also why, like I’ve started to shift more away from the physical. Health component to more of the emotional spiritual, because that is what I,
myself need. What’s the, Yeah.
and like what’s, what’s, the saying? Like, authors write books they need to read the most, or something to that effect.
So I feel like that this is kind of like my book right now is my podcast and it just,
you know, these types of life giving conversations, um, addressing things that I struggle with. And I think at the end of the day, like you [00:52:00] can be physically healthy, but if your emotional and mental health is not, not there, it’s.
It’s not really gonna benefit you in the long run.
Alison Cook: That’s right. What is bringing me joy and even doing a little inventory at the end of the day. You know, again, kind of that what was hard today and what brought me life today,
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Alison Cook: And if you can’t answer that second question, huh? I need to, I need to look at that.
Jacqueline: Right, and just appreciating little things. What’s the Charlie Brown quote? It’s like life’s worth living when you have something like good to look forward to or it, it’s so true though. Just, just a little thing, like your morning cup of coffee or
a morning walk.
Um, but just taking a day at a time.
Alison Cook: yep. Totally.
Jacqueline: Well, I can’t believe we’re almost nearing the hour, so I do wanna be conscious of your time, Dr. Allison. I would love to have you back on again at some point soon, but where can listeners find you and pick up a copy of your awesome books?
Alison Cook: Yeah. Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. Just so vital, and I really appreciate your authenticity. You’re just
very real and I can imagine you’re [00:53:00] bringing just wonderful healing wisdom to your listeners. So it’s been an honor to be here with you. Um, you can find me, Dr. Allison cook.com. My podcast is the best of you with Dr.
Allison. The book is, I shouldn’t feel this way. Um, there, it’s really about these. Tangled up knots of emotion. The best of you is more about breaking free, kind of the trauma piece, the boundaries piece. And then my first book, boundaries for Your Soul is more this internal family systems model that we talked a little bit about, which is a deeper dive for those of your listeners who wanna go deep into parts work.
Um, there’s a, there’s a lot of stuff in there, so you can find that anywhere you get books. And it’s Dr. Allison cook.com.
Jacqueline: That is awesome. Uh, that will be the topic of our next podcast conversation, and I still have yet to read that
one.
but I, I am looking forward to it. My very last question for you, Dr. Allison, and this is my favorite one to always ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to
Alison Cook: Mm oh boy. It’s a, it’s what we have [00:54:00] been talking about to me. Well, and strong isn’t the absence of hard things. It’s the ability to lead myself in partnership with God through. through. what’s hard. Through what’s beautiful through what’s good without missing any of it.
Jacqueline: I love that. That was beautiful. I’m truly looking forward to, to sharing this with listeners and
Alison Cook: Yeah.
Jacqueline: know when it goes
Alison Cook: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.Jacqueline: All right. Perfect. Well, Dr. Allison, so I first heard about you on Stephanie Mawson’s podcast Girls Night, which was among the very first podcast I ever listened to back in 2020. I had the honor of having her on this show several months ago, but I’m an avid listener of her podcast, and when I heard her episode with you.
I was immediately captivated by you and all of your work, and your podcast, the best of you, has become one of my new favorites to listen to. So I [00:03:00] immediately was like, I need to have this woman on my show, um, just to talk to you for my own sake. But I know that my listeners are certainly gonna benefit from this conversation as well.
Alison Cook: Oh, I love that. I love that connection. That’s so fun to hear. I’m, I’m so grateful that, that you found me that way and, and it’s so great to, to hear that. I love that. I.
Jacqueline: So I recently picked up one of your books. I shouldn’t feel this way and I could not put it down.
And as you can see, I have marked it up pretty, pretty extensively. Um, I’m one of those people that pretty much writes in in every single book they read just to help, uh, you know, retain information. But I’m so curious what inspired you to write this book?
Alison Cook: Well, primarily my own complicated emotions. I’ve always been someone, even today, you know, at my rip old age here, of having done this work for a long time, I’m very aware of what’s going on inside of me, and I’m very aware of it, almost like I say in the book as a tangled up knot. Like I just have learned to notice, oh, I [00:04:00] have that feeling of, oh, something is tangled up inside of me and when I didn’t know what to do with that.
You know, it’s like walking around with a limp or walking around with a part of you that doesn’t work and it doesn’t help you to make good decisions when you’re not clear on what’s happening inside of you. And so I really wrote it primarily outta my own experience, trying to figure out how to untangle the knots of my own inner life.
Also, working with clients over the years. Right? Just learning how to. I liken it to a necklace. Actually this necklace I have on has had a knot in it. You know, it, it just gets knotted very easily, you know, and I liken it to that, that really slow, delicate work of slowing down to untangle the knots, because then things are so clear and they flow so smoothly.
But when you don’t know how to do it, it’s really hard.
Jacqueline: That’s so true. I know. I love your statement. Clarity gives birth to action. I like highlighted that and I, I actually wrote it down ’cause it’s, it’s so, so true. Um, and I love that analogy with the [00:05:00] necklace that’s so spot on. Let’s get right into it though. Your book addresses difficult emotions that many people experience, how would you define healthy versus unhealthy emotional responses?
Alison Cook: Great question. So any emotion is not bad or good. And so the first thing I would say is an unhealthy response is to immediately shame yourself for an emotion. But it’s also. Unhealthy to immediately, and this is where sometimes our culture doesn’t get at the nuance of this. It’s also not super helpfully helpful to immediately validate.
Every emotion, right? And so either of those extremes is problematic. So hence the title of the book. I shouldn’t feel this way. Well, that’s not a helpful response. I am angry. I am really annoyed at this friend of mine. Or I am really bitter about what happened at work. That’s just a feeling. It’s neither good nor bad.
It’s not something to shame myself for. It’s also not something to act on right away. And [00:06:00] that’s where the book goes, right? It, it walks you through a process. The first step is just. Oh, it’s a noticing. It’s, I’m bitter, I’m jealous. I am mad. I am lonely. That first noticing. So a healthy response to an emotion initially is just to notice it.
It is. It is what I feel. And not to act on it, but also not to shame ourselves for it.
Jacqueline: Right. I love that. I know one thing my dad has always shared with me whenever I find myself in the midst of, you know, challenging emotions is he always says emotions are not rational. Right. They just are. And, and I loved that because it’s so true. And to your point, we do shame ourselves if we are feeling jealous or envious or bitter.
Um, rather than asking ourselves, you know, why am I feeling like this? And, and really understanding like where those. Thoughts are where those emotions are actually stemming from. Right.
Alison Cook: Exactly.
Jacqueline: And what are some of like those root causes behind feelings like [00:07:00] shame and, and fear? You know, the most common ones that people struggle with.
Alison Cook: Yeah, I mean, many of us just simply weren’t taught what we, you know, psychologists, we call it emotional intelligence, which is this whole skillset that many of us just weren’t taught, I don’t think. Most of us, I think it’s changing a little bit, but certainly in my generation we weren’t. We didn’t. We weren’t taught this in our families, we weren’t taught this in schools.
What, how to have emotional intelligence and emotional intelligence comes with two features. One is the ability to understand your emotions, and two, it’s the understanding of how to speak constructively. I. Keyword on behalf of emotions, right? So think about our physical bodies, right? We have to learn a new skill.
If I wanna learn how to play tennis, there’s a whole lot of skills I have to learn, and then I’ve gotta practice those skills. Well, it’s not that different with our emotional life, with our emotional intelligence. It’s a whole part of us that requires some skill to learn. And that’s what I’m trying to do in this book.
So that’s the baseline as a lot of us just weren’t learn, weren’t taught, but then depending on our families of origin, [00:08:00] some of us had higher levels of emotional awareness than others. Sounds like, based on what you’re saying about your dad, there was some emotional awareness in your family. Emotions weren’t necessarily shamed, but many people grew up in families where those emotions were shamed.
You can’t feel that way. You can’t, or at the very least, it’s not only that you can’t feel that way, but you can’t express that feeling. Right. And so we learn kind of through even the best of parents maybe didn’t know how to. Help us understand the emotion, not again, necessarily act on the emotion, but understand it.
And then lastly, we do there is the reality of trauma of, you know, folks having really, really painful experiences, whether in childhood or adulthood that have never been healed. And that can lead to nervous system responses that are disproportionate from the event that is occurring in the present. I can unpack that a little bit if you want me to, but there’s a lot of ways that our [00:09:00] emotional kind of barometer can go sideways.
Jacqueline: No, I’d love that. And I do wanna touch on the nervous system dysregulation part at some point, but I did have a question about the emotional like responses. I’m so curious. In the clients that you’ve worked with, have you noticed like anything like with culture and the way folks express emotions? ‘
Alison Cook: Absolutely, and I’m so glad you brought it up because there, that, there is that overlay too of how different cultures deal with, some cultures really value and honor the big emotions. Some cultures really sideline and, and kind of have a, have an almost silencing effect. Doesn’t have to be shaming, but a ooh, emotions shouldn’t be expressed.
And so. Those are nuances of how we pick up our own understanding of an emotions. And again, there’s no right or wrong there, but we do need to, as we become emotional intelligent, to recognize our own defaults, our own conditioning, how our emotions impact others regardless and how we wish to. You know, again, I always think about [00:10:00] emotions like.
We want to be speaking on behalf of our emotions versus speaking from them and for different people that’ll look very differently. Right? You, you think about relationships and some relationships, the the two people who are part of that relationship are okay with. A little bit more intensity, a little bit more fire in the emotions when we’re speaking on behalf of them.
Right? Whereas for some people, it’s like, oh, no, I, I can’t, I, I need it to be very measured. I need everything to come out right. Again, there isn’t necessarily a right or wrong as it comes to relationship, but there is a need for a negotiation and a and a norm setting that works for both people, and that does include some ability to regulate your own emotions.
Jacqueline: Right. So, so true. Yeah. I find this area so, so fascinating. If I wasn’t in the wellness space, I certainly would be in the psychology space because there’s just so much depth, you know, to all of these topics. Um, one thing you do mention in your book that I, I highlighted is that [00:11:00] you mentioned you believe that the noise in our minds and our inability to tend to it is one of the most under-addressed, under-diagnosed, and under named threats to the health of ourselves and our relationships.
That really, really stuck with me. And I just started thinking, you know, there’s noise 24 7, even in my life, I feel like I’m always listening and you’ve had podcast episodes on this too, but
Alison Cook: Yep,
Jacqueline: we’re constantly stimulated, right? Whether it’s listening to a podcast or music or talking to someone. And I started to, to really kind of reflect on that just from, from my own life.
And I’ve realized that. I go down those avenues because at the end of the day, I am lonely. Right? And if I could feel like I’m constantly listening to someone or something like that is my kind of crutch, so to speak. And you know, I, I think it’s, it could be a good thing, right? But when you’re constantly stimulated, it’s not really great for your mind and it doesn’t leave you room to pause and reflect, on those emotions.
So. With that, and [00:12:00] this is kind of a question for myself and I know a lot of other listeners are probably struggling with this, is how do we actually learn to sit and understand our feelings rather than suppress them, ignore them, try to escape them? And that’s, that’s the golden question. And I’m sure everyone has a different approach to this, but I’m, I’m curious what you’ve seen has, has worked for your clients.
Alison Cook: Yeah, you’re saying something so important when you’re describing that tendency to have a podcast in our ear, have noise in our ear as a form of connection. That’s a really. Insightful comment, and I agree with you and I see that, and it’s not all bad, but I like to say to people, there are actually three relationships that we need to cultivate a relationship with others.
That connection with others, a connection with our spirituality, with something outside of us, whether that’s God, whether that’s, you know, for whatever that looks like for people and a relationship with ourselves and that relationship with ourselves is where. We do need to be able to untangle from [00:13:00] the voices and the noise of others, even just momentarily.
And I do think it’s harder and harder in our world. It can be as simple as taking a walk. For a few moments. It doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t have to be, I want, I don’t want people, you know, I’m not saying we all have to go be monks, you know, and sit in a cave in silence for, for months on end. But we do need to have a rhythm of, because what we’re doing in those moments is attuning to our own nervous system, to our own bodies, to the cues our own emotions are sending us.
I’m sad, you know? And. Oh my goodness, I’m sad. And then, oh, now that I realize that I can call a friend. And say, I’m sad. So we have greater intimacy and that’s very different from just keeping the noise on so that we never have to face the sadness. And so we need those rhythms of taking walks. Sometimes it’s a symbol in the busier seasons of my life when I had kids and I was in the car [00:14:00] a lot and, and carpool lanes a lot just turning off, just having the discipline of when I’m in the car for these 20 minutes, not listening to the radio, not listening to a podcast.
Because I’m moving, it’s contained, but it’s my time to just be with myself and notice what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking about? What are the messages I’m telling myself? So just that discipline every, you know, just a little bit of a rhythm is a better word of being with ourselves and learning that it’s okay that it’s not gonna overwhelm us.
But that it gives us that moment just to check in, just like we would with a friend or a child, you know, where just a quick check in of how are you really doing?
What are you really thinking about? That’s what I mean by wanting us to just have these moments, uh, with ourselves.
Jacqueline: Right. That’s so good. And that lends to the concept of, of what you call minding your mind, which I also love. And that is what you say is like noticing and reflecting our, our inner [00:15:00] dialogues. How do we tactically do that? And you highlight like this three step, what is it, name, frame, and brave process.
Could you elaborate on that? ’cause I love that so much.
Alison Cook: yeah. I mean, the first step to all of this is the naming. Just getting used to noticing without shame. Oh, I’m, I’m worked up. I am lonely, I’m distracted. I, you know, even a naming could be. I cannot stop listening to podcasts. I cannot be by myself. That’s a naming. It’s a noticing. And in that moment, there’s this moment almost a, you know, just a papers with distance of di, what we call differentiation, where more of our prefrontal cortex comes online.
We have more access to different parts of our brain. The part of us that’s firing. The amygdala and the part of us that’s meaning making, right? Just that act of naming, of going, this is what’s happening right now. That moment of awareness, that first step is a huge step toward clarity, right? Even if I can’t stop myself from [00:16:00] doing it, I am aware that I am, and it introduces just a subtle shift to where the next time there might be that pause where I go, why?
Maybe I. Just delay that for a few moments. Right. And so that first step or, or what, you know, if it’s, I’m angry, right? And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m gonna write it down in my journal and I’m gonna come back to it tomorrow, right? So that first step of just awareness, right? That’s the naming.
And then I talk about this whole step called framing. And as a therapist, this is where we live, right? It’s helping people, right? And I’ve had people read the book and go, wow. And I’m like, but you can do this. We can also do this for ourselves. And I’ll give you an example that I use in the book, but the, the, the naming is I am angry.
I just came home and my roommate left stuff all over. Or, you know, my kids left stuff all over the house and I’m mad, right? That’s the naming. So we can lash out, we can yell, we can pick a fight, [00:17:00] we can suppress. None of that is very helpful. The alternative is we take a minute, I call it, it could be a pause, it could be a, you know, a, a walk around the block.
It could be a deep breath. It might take a few days, depending on how deep to really, what’s really going on here. Have this, and these are examples of framing questions. Have I ever asked the people I live with to pick up their stuff? Right? And if I haven’t, what’s stopping me?
Jacqueline: Right.
Alison Cook: So that’s gonna lead to a different brave action step.
The second, have I been asking for weeks and they’re blatantly disrespecting me? Well, that’s a whole different problem, right? And so the naming of the anger is the first step. The framing of it is, what’s really going on here? Give myself a minute to go a little deeper with the reality of the situation.
’cause then when I do take a brave step toward action, it’s gonna be way better, way more effective, way clearer, and it’s gonna be grounded in. What I know to be true of what’s happening in this [00:18:00] moment.
Jacqueline: Right. And one thing too, you also talk about that I loved is this concept of like the holy reframe, right? And I, one thing I’ve grown very passionate about Dr. Allison is just incorporating faith into my. Approach to wellness, and that obviously applies to psychology. In fact, have you heard of Joe Hargreaves?
Does that name ring a
bell? You would. You would really like her work. She has, I think her Instagram handles the faith-filled therapist. I had her on the podcast a few weeks ago. In fact, our episode was titled Managing Your Mind. But essentially what she does is she just like. She preaches how biblical truths, you know, reflect like what science is finding today in terms of neuroplasticity and rewiring and you know, this very well in terms of, you know, rewiring your mind and taking your thoughts captive.
And she’s kind of like, a mini Caroline Leaf, I think. Um, but she’s incredible. But could you just, touch on like this whole concept of the holy reframe and how that, you know, may change the way we approach that process.
Alison Cook: I see that step of framing. So first of all, I said all that. The naming [00:19:00] is such an act of partnering with God to name what’s true. Right? God doesn’t ask us to, and many of us, if you grew up with a faith background, that can be part of why we shame ourselves for emotions. Well, I, I wanna be a good person.
I don’t wanna feel mad at somebody. Right? But naming is just, oh God, this is. This is what’s true. I have a exercise at the end of the book. I call it Comm God. And so when you’re in your car minding your mind and you’re paying attention and you’re like, I’m so mad, or I, ugh, I, I, I will gently start to add a comm God, it just becomes a conversation.
I’m so mad, God, I’m so hurt. God, it’s all when reminding our mind, it’s all a conversation with God of naming what’s true. The framing step, we see it all throughout the Bible, these, these holy in-betweens, these spaces in between, right where we take a minute to invite the deeper, the deeper wisdom. The deeper wisdom that God wants us to have that’s not reactive [00:20:00] and it is backed up by science, as you’re saying.
It’s that moment where we allow our nervous system to calm. Now. We’re not numbing ourselves. We’re allowing for all of what we’ve just taken in to be metabolized through our bodies, through our nerve, neuro nervous system, how God designed us so that we get to a deeper, more grounded wisdom, which is I am angry and I am being disrespected.
That is true. What’s also true is I don’t want to be cruel, so how do I now take an action that honors both of those things? Right? This is true, and this is also true even when we’re setting boundaries with people who are harming us, and I get into that in later chapters of the book, even when there has been harm and there has been toxicity.
This is what’s true and also this is what’s true and I want to relate to other people from that grounded place of truth and I do believe that is a very spiritual I.
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, look at the book of Psalms, right? Like David cries out to [00:21:00] God, you know, and he’s very emotional and I think that just lets us know that it is okay, right? To have all these emotions. Like one minute he’s praising God and the next he’s like,
Alison Cook: yes.
Jacqueline: all this to happen?
I don’t understand.
Alison Cook: Yes, and, and God can handle all of that, right? Even when we’re in the middle of a temper tantrum, you know, that we don’t wanna have, and so that’s the other thing when you talk about connection, right? When we don’t spend those times unplugged from other people, from devices, we are missing out on those intimate moments with God and God.
If and if nothing else starts right where we are. We don’t have to get ourselves to a good place to talk to God. It’s right where we are. Whatever’s happening, that’s that. Comma, God, this is where I’m at God, and that’s that intimacy that is just so, so deeply satisfying.
Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that so much. Another thing too, Dr. Allison, that Joe and I spoke about, and I actually spoke about the same topic with my Aunt Marianne, who is among the very first [00:22:00] guests I ever had on my podcast. And that was the, this whole concept of, fact versus truth, right? And we looked at it in the context of like, you know, a medical report, for example, like this is what someone’s blood work says, but like the truth is that you are healed.
And even with thoughts, like Joe was saying, you know, if you have a thought that does not line up with the Bible, like the second you have it and that’s how you also, or I guess is a way to deal with intrusive thoughts, is to just put it up next to scripture and say. Is this true? Like, is this good? Is this lovely?
Is this a, you know, good report? And if it’s not, then you just have to reject it. Um, so with that, I am, I’m so curious too, ’cause a lot of people do struggle with this, myself included, is intrusive thoughts, right? When we have intrusive thoughts, what is an appropriate like process to address those? And I think the, the irony is that the times I experience intrusive thoughts the most, Dr.
Allison are, when everything is quote unquote, seemingly like. Fine. You know, like it could be in a happy moment. It could be in a moment that I’m just, you know, at ease and all of a sudden that thought will [00:23:00] just pop into my mind. Um, and it’s often the same thought. Right. And I’m just curious, like, what has been effective, um, maybe for you personally or again, in the, in the people that you’ve
Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline: in terms of strategies.
Alison Cook: I think that. When we’re struggling with intrusive thoughts, with anxious thoughts, the body becomes so important because sometimes meeting thoughts with other thoughts isn’t helpful.
Because we’re stuck in our minds.
And so what I’ve found with some folks who really struggle with this is to remember to go that your body, that in psychology, we have this, I, we have these.
Um, and, and this is also supported by scripture. Top down, bottom up approaches. Top down approaches are replace the thought with a truer thought. Very effective. But for many people, especially when there’s been trauma, especially when there’s, um, kind of a, a disembodied when we’re, when our nervous system is firing, what we know now is that the, [00:24:00] our thoughts aren’t just in our minds, right?
They come from deeper places. So when our nervous system is firing in ways that are creating some negative thoughts or some critical thoughts, we also have these bottom up approaches, which are, which means. Oh, I need to ground myself. And there’s some really great research backed exercises for taking those bottom up approaches of, again, nature is huge.
Being outside and meditating on something very earthy. What do I see in front of me? What color do I see? What are objects that I see? Um, which again, we see in the Psalms kind of looking to the, the natural world. Um, deep breathing can be very helpful, just literally releasing breath through the nervous system.
So there are. Those bottom up approaches that don’t necessarily attack the thought head on, that that can, they’re two different ways, but if that isn’t working, those bottom up approaches of calming yourself, soothing, your nervous system [00:25:00] can lead to a release which evaporates the thoughts. So those are, that’s another way.
And I, I do have a chapter at, in the book on those bottom up approaches for folks specifically who, it’s almost like. They have such overactive thinking parts,
Jacqueline: Yes.
Alison Cook: right? And, and so you can almost outthink your own thought replacement strategies.
Jacqueline: right.
Alison Cook: So there’s a different way to kind of calm the nervous system to keep those thoughts from firing.
Jacqueline: Yeah, so interesting. And that reminds me too, of the, the concept of thinking traps, right? That you talk about. What would you define that as for listeners who haven’t yet read your book, and how can we escape those?
Alison Cook: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, these are just cognitive biases that influence our emotions, and there’s some that are, that have just been studied for years, but, you know, all or nothing thinking, you know, if this wasn’t the best podcast interview ever, I’m a complete failure. That’s an [00:26:00] example of all or nothing thinking it’s not true. But I have to first be able to name that. Okay. I feel, and I’m, I’m just making this a hypothetical in real time, I don’t really feel this way, but let’s say I feel I am, I’m just a failure. I have to first notice that without shame and then connect to, well, I have to reframe it, that holy reframe. Well, just because it wasn’t the best thing I’ve ever done doesn’t mean it was a failure.
Maybe it was good enough, you know? And so that’s one, uh, there’s, there’s just so many, um. Uh, of these, uh, you know, false binaries. It’s either or when, so often it’s both, and I love my spouse and I’m frustrated with them.
Both of those things are true, right? and so.
Learning to identify those can be really helpful because then we even just saying that for, for clients or for folks to be like, listen, you can be angry with someone and really love them.
Calms that nervous system brings more [00:27:00] creativity online, brings more spaciousness online to where we find our way to have a much healthier conversation with that person. So those thinking traps are really where we, when we get stuck, almost all, always, they’re sort of false dichotomies.
Jacqueline: Have you found an association? Between, I guess personality type and thinking trap. So like, would you say ’cause I, again, I’m sure there’s so much research on this, but would you say that like someone who might be like Type A perfectionist would be more inclined to have that, like all or nothing mentality.
Alison Cook: Uh, yes, there, there’s certainly, so there’s sort of a big five. There’s a lot of research on big five personality traits. I did a podcast episode on it where there’s certain, um, yes, very, um, perfectionistic types, more frankly, high sensitive people who are very aware, um, can. Take in more data. Um, so there, there’s certainly, there’s always, you can always bring in the Enneagram.
There are different types, personality types on the Enneagram, Enneagram that [00:28:00] are more conducive, um, to some of these thinking traps. Um, and that’s why we need a multimodal approach. For some people, the replacement, the, oh, this just isn’t true, like matching that works. But for others there needs to be more of a nervous system intervention, a nervous
Jacqueline: Right. Yeah. Even too. You mentioned journaling before. You are gonna think I’m crazy, Dr. Allison, but I have about five separate journals. No, I do not write in them every day, but they’re all kind of just dedicated to like different parts of my life. And Stephanie actually kind of inspired me to do that because it just helps me like.
Compartmentalize the different areas of my life, right? So like my career, another thing could be like personal and family. And just the act I’ve found of writing my thoughts on paper creates so much clarity. Right? And I think that’s why like just having a conversation with a friend or you know, your parent or a therapist is so beneficial because I think over 80% of it is just getting the thoughts out of [00:29:00] your
Alison Cook: yeah, a hundred percent. And that’s why the research on journaling is so powerful. We are literally, you’re getting those thoughts out of your head. And the thing about relationships processing with a friend is it’s the quality. Of the connection. Are you processing it with someone who’s listening, honoring, holding space?
Are you processing it with someone who’s jumping in to give advice prematurely? Who’s telling you what to think? Who’s telling you what to feel? Right? So that quality also is really important. If you’re someone who deals with a lot of thinking traps, right? Those relationships are invaluable. When you go to someone and say, especially with shame, I feel shame,
right?
For that friend or that loved one to say, listen, I get it, to hold it and also help you see it. From a different Holy reframe.
Jacqueline: Right. Kind of on the same topic of thinking traps and, and intrusive thoughts. Folks who deal with rumination, right. And thinking I should have done that and constantly like replaying past
events. Would you, would you consider like a similar approach to, to addressing that as you would with [00:30:00] intrusive thoughts?
Or is there anything different that folks could, could implement?
Alison Cook: You know, there’s the clinical part of me goes to, I don’t, I wanna be really careful how we’re talking about this. ’cause for people who really do have intrusive thoughts that are under the category of OCD, where they, that’s a very different thing where folks, um, I did just did a PO really, uh, fascinating podcast interview with a guy who’s a therapist and also has dealt with OCD.
Jacqueline: I saw that I have yet to hear about it, but that’s actually why I wanted to ask you to explain like what is the difference between OCD and then just common intrusive thoughts that everyone,
Alison Cook: He talks about that on the episode, and I don’t wanna speak for him ’cause it’s not my area of, of expertise, but it’s a great episode where he describes it’s um, it’s an ongoing pattern, right? That. In some ways they, they, sometimes they, they’re called sticky thoughts, and in some ways, identifying the sticky thought and really being compassionate with yourself through it doesn’t necessarily [00:31:00] mean it will go away.
Right? And so there’s that category for some folks, right? Then there’s a category for folks where it is rooted in a thinking trap, and it’s really about identifying and recognizing the pattern. Shifting the pattern through a cognitive intervention. Um, and then also I would just say from my, my, I’m trained in a, a modality called IFS Internal Family Systems.
This idea that we have different parts of us, I tend to work a lot with folks who have overthinking parts, ruminating parts, and those are parts of us that work. They think that we can solve everything. Intellectually, rationally, analytically, they’re overly an, it’s a superpower and it becomes an Achilles heel,
right? And so the, in that instance, what I work with people on is setting gentle boundaries with that part of us. Why are you working so hard when they overwork? When we start [00:32:00] ruminating, when we start obsessing, when we start overthinking, it’s a cue. I’m, it’s almost always a cue. I’m scared.
Jacqueline: Yes.
Alison Cook: I’m vulnerable. I have fear.
And so it’s that work that’s, that’s the work I primarily do with folks is getting at the vulnerability underneath, because when we’re working too hard, we’re overthinking, we’re ruminating. It’s almost all often, it’s almost always because there’s a fear underneath and we have to face the fear, oh, I’m afraid.
I don’t actually have ultimate control here. I can’t think my way through the perfect solution. I have to do the best I can and calculate the risk, and honor the fear.
Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. And that just reminds me too of something in your book you spoke about, you know, the concept of surrender. And that has been such a game changer for me. And I don’t know if you know anything about my background, Dr. Allison, but the reason I started well and strong is because my mom was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer back in
2018. Um, so it’s been a journey the past several years, [00:33:00] but. I originally started it to share more about like this integrative approach to cancer, which I still stand by, but. Everything we’ve been through over the past several years has just made me realize that like it’s not so much about the treatments folks pursue as much as it is about trusting God with the outcome, right?
And like God uses medicine and, and again like my mission with well and strong has shifted more as I mentioned earlier, to more of a faith-based approach. But I think like we are to do what we can do, right? The Bible says like once you’ve done all stand. So I think like that is important, but at the same time it’s so important to recognize that like.
God is sovereign and he is in control of the outcome. And whenever I do have any type of like ruminating thought about a past medical decision or you know, the should haves or would haves, I think I just, I recite my verses. I recite Romans 8 28. I recite like God is guiding our, you know, like I. God is, God is in control.
And there’s so much peace in knowing that. And even when you apply that to like thoughts, like [00:34:00] God knows all of the thoughts that we will ever have, and he says like all of our days are written in his book before one yet came to be. And that gives me so much peace that like there’s nothing that I’m gonna do that will surprise God, right?
So just like grounding yourself in that truth has really been a game changer for me.
Alison Cook: Oh, Jacqueline, that is so beautiful and so profound. We, there’s such a freedom in the truth that we are not God. I am not God. I do not have all the power in the universe to fix this painful situation for myself, my family member. And I think those overthinking parts of us at times because they’re scared, wanna play God,
I. If I could come up with the perfect, and, and it’s that general reminder, again, non-shaming. Oh my gosh, I have to do, do my best and let go of the rest because I, I simply have a finite capacity to understand what’s happening [00:35:00] here. And it’s not that we. Don’t do our part. I hear you very clearly, but we absolutely have to be able to have that open hand.
Right now, I, my open-handed, that’s another nervous system response. When we’re overthinking, sometimes I will do, if I can’t, I will open my hands like this, that, to remind myself.
Ultimately, God, this is yours. I’ve done my best. It’s now in your hands. And I do think that’s a spiritual kind of embodied way of honoring that can soften those parts of us that really genuinely at their best, are desperately trying to solve
Jacqueline: Right.
Alison Cook: a very painful situation.
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, exactly. And, and something too. I had my cousin on a couple weeks ago, and one thing she’s always shared with me, she’s another just great spiritual mentor and she always says, she’s like, I always ask myself, when I’m thinking about a past decision, she’s like, I always think like, but would I really have known the outcome of the other choice?
Like, that’s in another reality that like, we don’t actually know what would’ve happened [00:36:00] had we chose like. Chosen path B over path A. Like we think we do, but we, but we really don’t. And it just lends to the fact that like our minds really do play tricks on us. Right. And that’s why it’s, it’s, so important to just kind of like reel it in.
Like you are not your mind.
Alison Cook: No, and we are limited in our capacity and our knowing. I recently went through a situation where I had to make a really hard decision and was beating myself up that I didn’t know four years ago. Information that I know now,
Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cook: right? And it’s almost like I had to forgive myself for knowledge I couldn’t have had
when I was supposed to have it.
But there is that process of, again, that spiritual process with God saying, God, I didn’t know. I didn’t know, and I’m I know now. And you know, just kind of coming to peace
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Alison Cook: with that, that, that God stands outside of all time and place.
Jacqueline: Right. and, it also too, it [00:37:00] just like I found too, and I’m, I’m 29 years old, so I still have, you know, quite a ways to go. But I found in, in my, you know, spiritual journey over the past several years especially, is that. It comes down to knowing the character of God. Right. And I think like if we truly are seeking him and seeking his will and we, you know, are ambivalent about something, which I know you touch on in your book as well, like we can trust that he’s going to guide our
steps. Into whatever he already has planned. Right? Like even, ’cause we won’t ever a hundred percent know like all the facts in any given situation. Like we have to just choose to walk forward. Um, and God says that he guides our steps. Right? Not necessarily when we’re just like standing still and stagnant. We
Alison Cook: Right. God directs. I remember a wise spiritual. Mentor used said to me when I was younger, a little bit younger than you, but but much younger than I am now, and I would be immobilized
with
Jacqueline: fear,
Alison Cook: paralysis about decisions. And he
said to me, God directs a person in motion.[00:38:00]
Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that.
Alison Cook: thought, that’s, you gotta take some steps.
And that’s brave. That’s where courage comes in and, and God wants us to learn. That’s why I like the, the idea of partnership, God to kind of. Work with us as we move. He wants us to grow and, and take risks and he’ll catch us when we fall. Um, but yeah, I really, uh, when you give me that context of what you’ve been dealing with the last few years, I really get it.
I really get why your mind might’ve been overactive, overprocessing, and bless that part of you. Understood. Right. And also God is inviting this. Ultimately we’ve got, you’ve gotta surrender and it’s, it’s, it’s a real learning curve, but it’s a, it’s a great place to be when we can open handedly with God.
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, I love that. One thing that just sparked a thought, I wanted to touch on this earlier when you were talking [00:39:00] about naming emotions, but in terms of behaviors, right? We have numbing behaviors and you say that numbing is the opposite of naming. What are some examples of those numbing behaviors?
’cause I feel like, I mean there there are so many, right? So just if you could highlight some, because I feel like folks are gonna be like, yep, I do this all the
Alison Cook: Yeah, and I really try to make sure I, I talk about there’s conscious, intentional numbing that is sometimes healthy, right? And then there’s, when we’re just completely avoiding, and I’ll give you some examples. So numbing behaviors that go the, the, the kind of low hanging fruit, you know, could be booze, it could be, you know, drugs.
That’s sort of the. But, but for many of us, it’s binging Netflix, it’s binging podcasts. It’s constantly keeping the noise in it’s, uh, social media. Um, it could be food, it could be, um, shopping.
It could be, you know, so there’s a, just a range right of, of ways that we shut down painful emotions. And as a fellow overthinker, as a [00:40:00] fellow fellow, you know. I relate to a lot of what you’re saying. Sometimes I strategically tell myself, I’ve got a lot on my mind. I need to not think about it after 6:30 PM
And so for me, at in the evenings, I really choose, I watch shows, I take walks with my husband. I, I in, that’s not numbing, that’s strategically calming, soothing myself, right?
I’ve learned that over time. Numbing back in the day for me before I was doing that was just never dealing with the overthinking. But, um, so instead of actually recognizing, oh, I’m hurting, and so I’m overthinking over here to try to solve all my problems, and then just essentially when it got to be too much checking out through
like, you know, a binge, a binge Netflix.
But never really recognizing what was [00:41:00] happening that led to really unhealthy patterns,
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, it does. That reminds me too, they did a study, and this was like a long time ago, but. People trying to lose weight. And they had one group every time they went to the refrigerator after like 8:00 PM at night, they had one group stop before they ate anything, take out a journal and write down what they were feeling and wait five minutes and then see if they still went back versus the other group just, you know, letting them do whatever.
And they found that the former group. Lost weight because they weren’t like inclined to eat after they had addressed their emotions through, you know, journaling what they were. And that’s so powerful. And I mean, at night too, like if it’s a late night and I’m working and I’m stressed, like what is my first reaction go to
to the refrigerator? Um, but it’s like we do it so subconsciously,
Alison Cook: Yeah, it’s that what you just described there is that pause, it’s that pause to frame name. I wanna grab the bag of cookies and then the pause of what’s really going [00:42:00] on here? Do I need the bag of cookies or am I tired or lonely or scared, or just really tired and maybe I should
go to bed, you know? Um, it’s that pause that is so, so valuable.
Jacqueline: Right. And that last step of braving it, right. What are some ways to brave care?
Alison Cook: Ooh, we’ve covered some of them. I would say, I, I use the acronym of brave. So, um, boundaries, and that’s the low hanging fruit we tend to, but, and boundaries don’t just mean with other people. Boundaries can mean internal boundaries. So boundaries with myself, if I overthink and stress out after 8:00 PM do I need to set boundaries with my work so that I’m not right?
So there’s that part of boundaries. Um, and that’s, that’s not. Boundaries aren’t punitive. Boundaries are about care. Boundaries are about wholeness. Uh, range is the r increasing my range. Um, uh, uh, uh, instead of reaching for the bag of cookies, calling a [00:43:00] friend and, and really writing that down. What are five other things I could do instead of this thing that isn’t helpful to me?
Going for a walk. Um, increasing my range of responses. Um. A is assertiveness. Many of us struggle with asking for what we need, asking for help. Right? So that’s a way we can care for ourselves. I need help with this. Right? Um, the V is vitality. I, I really think it’s so important when we think about caring for ourselves to think about what, what makes us come alive?
What fuels our tank? What stops that overthinking? ’cause we’re having so much fun. We’re not. You know, worried, um, noticing those things. And I think that’s very biblical. Like what brings us joy, what
makes me feel God’s presence? You know, is it going to an am I had a woman on my podcast. She said, it’s going to amusement parks.
And I was like, good for you. That is not what it is for me. But that is awesome. You know, it could be a lot of different things. Um, she’s, I just forget everything. So I take my team to amusement parks once a month and I’m like, good for you. And then E [00:44:00] is our environment. How do we care for ourselves? How’s our environment are?
Do we have too much stimulus? Do we have not enough? Are are we going to the gym or going to coffee shops that are supporting our feeling of
wholeness? Or are they, there’s folks there, I don’t feel safe, or whatever.
Our church environment, right? What’s our church environment like? What’s our home environment like?
What’s our friendship environment like? And so what can I control in my environment so it’s not all on me? So those are like, and I go through lots of examples of tho those for everything kind of that we’re talking about. But um, there’s so many ways we can, and this is your area with wellness, you know, we can begin to build a really full whole life where we do, you know, my.
Husband will often say, based on the Psalms, every day we’ll have its share of work,
Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cook: toil, suffering and joy. Work. Meaning just work. That’s hard, but good toil, which is like, Ugh, I [00:45:00] don’t like doing this, but I gotta do, it might be the dishes, you know, it might be, um, suffering. Is this, I’m sad because I’m worried about someone.
Joy is. Oh, this was just a great moment. Like a good life includes all of those things in balance. In balance, right? So that we are caring for ourselves in proportion to what we need.
Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. I love that acronym and I love the vitality component, and I have found that that has been truly life changing
for me because honestly, the times where I’m not worrying about the future or ruminating about the past are the times where I’m fully immersed in the present. Right. And that to your point is like you said, when we’re doing things that we fully enjoy, be that.
Painting. You know, I bought a set of paintbrushes and I haven’t really painted since I was a child, and I found that I, I love painting and I, my dad got me an acoustic guitar a few years ago for my birthday, and I’m learning to play the guitar and I find that whenever, like I’m so again, immersed
Alison Cook: Yes.
Jacqueline: your mind doesn’t have [00:46:00] time to ruminate on on
Alison Cook: Exactly. Music is a huge one for their mind, nature, um, color, visuals, um, it just puts us in a different place in our mind, as you said, and that’s really powerful. That’s not numbing.
That’s healthy self-care. Healthy self-soothing.
Jacqueline: Right. And even to game nights, like I’ll, I
hosted a game night with a bunch of friends.
The other, you know, the other month playing monopoly. Just so fun activities that, you know, force you to be present.
Alison Cook: Good for you. Yeah. That’s beautiful.
Jacqueline: Yeah. one other thing too, just talking about presence, I have found Dr. Allison, and I’m sure you know this might resonate with you, but the older I get, the more quickly I feel like time is passing right.
And I feel like it’s so hard. Like it’s already, it’s, it’s may, it’s nearly May, which is wild to me. How can slow down time? In, in the sense of and, and I’ll, I’ll give you my 2 cents. I’ve found that when I’m more intentional about scheduling things into my calendar, right? Whether it’s a walk with a friend or [00:47:00] some type of event, I’ll remember the month or the week, like I’ll have something to remember it by. So that’s been helpful
rather than just this whirlwind of
like time passing so quickly. What are your thoughts on that?
Alison Cook: Boy, that’s the million dollar question, right? How do we
slow down time? Yes. I, I, I’m a big fan of rhythms and it’s kind of what you’re saying. I’m a big fan of weekly, monthly. Quarterly rhythms, we often think about the annual rhythms, but, and I mean rhythms like monthly moments. So for example, a monthly check-in with a friend that, something memorable that memorializes the passing of April, for example.
Or the passing, you know, like what is, um, and, and even quarterly seasonal. This, this, and not just, you know, I love, I love your five journals, not just as it relates to work, but as it relates to our relationships, our families, and we’re cementing. I think about, um, when God says, remember that word, remember is, you know, we’re re remember [00:48:00] memorialize, memorialize, what happened in April.
Of 2025. Just one thing. One thing, you know, what was that one thing? And just creating rhythms with a loved one. With a friend or in your own journal.
Jacqueline: Right,
Alison Cook: Just a moment. Again, that’s a part of minding your mind. That’s a part of paying attention of maybe every day at the end of the month. What was one thing about April that was joyful?
What was one thing about April that was really hard and just kind of memorializing those rhythms? I don’t know if it slows time down, but I do think it helps anchor us in the swift
current of time.
Jacqueline: Very true. What are your work rhythms? Because you do so much, and again, I shared with you before we, we really started rolling, that I’m doing well in strong, full-time now, and it has certainly been quite the adjustment. I don’t have a team. People ask who my team is. I respond with me, myself, and I, and I’m just managing so many different
things and it, it does get very overwhelming and every day is different.
I feel like I don’t necessarily have that. You know, rhythm or structure. [00:49:00] So I’m just curious what have you found to be successful?
Alison Cook: Yeah, it’s a great question. When you work for yourself, it’s easy to kind of, um, I’ve, I’ve recently in the last year had to develop better, um. skills around relying on other people and getting support. ’cause I
do tend to be a little bit self-reliant. I think you and I have some things in common,
Jacqueline: Yes, we do.
Alison Cook: um, uh, and some of that working is that, is part of that, that overthinking part of me kind of can be very productive. Right? So it’s not all bad, but learning. So I would say what I’ve learned is. A good friend of mine, a fellow therapist, her name is Andy Colbert. She wrote a book called Try Softer.
She often says this, and it’s really helpful to me.
She, I love, first of all that phrase try softer. Isn’t that a great phrase?
Jacqueline: that
Alison Cook: Yeah. And she talks a lot about the body and the nervous system, but one of the things she says that really sticks with me is she says, [00:50:00] work from love, not for. love And so, yeah. Right. So I’m always thinking, am I working fr if I’m starting to slip into working, like, oh, I gotta, which usually comes out.
I don’t wanna do this, but I’ve gotta, it’s like, okay, that’s a time to, that’s a naming, I’ve gotta name that and it’s time to take care of myself. And I’ve gotten really good at that, really good at noticing if, because that’s its cue that my rhythms are off. I’m pouring out more and I need to bring in.
And so it helps, it’s helped me, um, to have a partnership. My husband and I now, um, our kids, kids really help kind of with your rhythms at times, but also now that our kids have been gone, we really help each other and that accountability is very helpful. We stop at a certain time, we go out and take walks together.
So having him as sort of a coworker is really helpful. Um. But if you don’t have [00:51:00] that, I would say just, um, really noticing when am I working out of fear, out of need, out
of, as opposed to when am I working out of excitement to get the
Jacqueline: Yeah. Yeah. So true. I know, and I, I, I found you even with podcasting, I mean, I took a break for the past few weeks and I was home with my family, but I find that the second I start to feel like it becomes a chore is when I pull back and I ask myself, okay, why is, why am I feeling like this? Is it the nature of the topics?
Right? And that’s kind of also why, like I’ve started to shift more away from the physical. Health component to more of the emotional spiritual, because that is what I,
myself need. What’s the, Yeah.
and like what’s, what’s, the saying? Like, authors write books they need to read the most, or something to that effect.
So I feel like that this is kind of like my book right now is my podcast and it just,
you know, these types of life giving conversations, um, addressing things that I struggle with. And I think at the end of the day, like you [00:52:00] can be physically healthy, but if your emotional and mental health is not, not there, it’s.
It’s not really gonna benefit you in the long run.
Alison Cook: That’s right. What is bringing me joy and even doing a little inventory at the end of the day. You know, again, kind of that what was hard today and what brought me life today,
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Alison Cook: And if you can’t answer that second question, huh? I need to, I need to look at that.
Jacqueline: Right, and just appreciating little things. What’s the Charlie Brown quote? It’s like life’s worth living when you have something like good to look forward to or it, it’s so true though. Just, just a little thing, like your morning cup of coffee or
a morning walk.
Um, but just taking a day at a time.
Alison Cook: yep. Totally.
Jacqueline: Well, I can’t believe we’re almost nearing the hour, so I do wanna be conscious of your time, Dr. Allison. I would love to have you back on again at some point soon, but where can listeners find you and pick up a copy of your awesome books?
Alison Cook: Yeah. Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. Just so vital, and I really appreciate your authenticity. You’re just
very real and I can imagine you’re [00:53:00] bringing just wonderful healing wisdom to your listeners. So it’s been an honor to be here with you. Um, you can find me, Dr. Allison cook.com. My podcast is the best of you with Dr.
Allison. The book is, I shouldn’t feel this way. Um, there, it’s really about these. Tangled up knots of emotion. The best of you is more about breaking free, kind of the trauma piece, the boundaries piece. And then my first book, boundaries for Your Soul is more this internal family systems model that we talked a little bit about, which is a deeper dive for those of your listeners who wanna go deep into parts work.
Um, there’s a, there’s a lot of stuff in there, so you can find that anywhere you get books. And it’s Dr. Allison cook.com.
Jacqueline: That is awesome. Uh, that will be the topic of our next podcast conversation, and I still have yet to read that
one.
but I, I am looking forward to it. My very last question for you, Dr. Allison, and this is my favorite one to always ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to
Alison Cook: Mm oh boy. It’s a, it’s what we have [00:54:00] been talking about to me. Well, and strong isn’t the absence of hard things. It’s the ability to lead myself in partnership with God through. through. what’s hard. Through what’s beautiful through what’s good without missing any of it.
Jacqueline: I love that. That was beautiful. I’m truly looking forward to, to sharing this with listeners and
Alison Cook: Yeah.
Jacqueline: know when it goes
Alison Cook: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
