You might believe that a happier life comes from more money, a dream job, or picture-perfect vacations—but think again. According to best-selling author, Yale lecturer, and international keynote speaker, Dr. Emma Seppala, PhD says that the science of happiness tells a different story. Through her groundbreaking research, Emma uncovers why so many of us chase the wrong things and what truly leads to lasting well-being. In this episode, Emma and I discuss some eye-opening studies and inspiring stories that will completely shift how you think about happiness. We also discuss the neuroscience of emotion regulation, the latest evidence for the benefits of silence, and how to cultivate our inner sovereignty to help foster creativity and build resilience.
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*Unedited Transcript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Well, first of all, Emma, I first heard about you and your work from Dan Harris’s 10 percent Happier Podcast. He did an episode with him. I think it was back in 2020. But upon listening to it, I was like, I love this woman. I love her work and I need to have her on my show. So I’m super excited to connect with you today.
Emma: Yay.
Jacqueline: Emma, you have, you have quite the background and I always like to start off just by asking, what inspired your journey into this space, right? Into studying happiness, resilience, well being, you cover so many very, very important topics.
Emma: So I grew up in France, um, which, you know, sounds like romantic and And it was very nice in some ways. In other ways, the philosophy on the streets was of like complaint and criticism and nothing’s ever going to work out and you’re never good enough and that kind of thing. And, um, so I always kind of felt, okay, I guess that’s just life.
Right. Then you come, I came to the U S for college and I was like, Oh, everybody here is like optimistic and like, you could do anything, like just go, you know, [00:01:00] and I really liked that a lot, but I also saw after a couple of years that in the U S people sort of. work themselves into the ground and like identify with I am what I do.
And there’s a certain amount of suffering there, you know, this inability almost to stop of inability to stop, you know, inability to just be. Um, and then I lived in China after college for a couple of years and I saw people who had absolutely nothing, but we’re grateful for everything. And they were so resilient and they were so, so powerful, so sovereign, like inner sovereignty that, you know, and I, in Tibet, I could.
You know, the people in Tibet are obviously not allowed to exercise their faith. They’re controlled in many ways. And still, they were still exercising their faith. They were still doing what they were doing. You know, there is such an inner sovereignty, despite the outer misery of, you know, even the life of, you know, people in Shanghai and Tibet at the time.
And I just saw, wow, there’s something they have. They have like a wealth. and inner wealth. We have outer wealth, but we don’t have inner wealth. They have [00:02:00] inner wealth. They may not have outer wealth. And then I realized, okay, this is something worth studying. And I did a master’s in East Asian studies and a PhD in psychology.
And I’ve been doing research on meditation and other practices that help people gain that inner sovereignty.
Jacqueline: That’s incredible. The first thing that came to mind, Emma, when you were, when you mentioned that, it’s that whole philosophy of, you know, live to work versus work to live? Right. And I, I have yet to visit France. It’s on my list, but I did study abroad in Italy when I was a junior in college.
And one thing I just observed is it’s such a different lifestyle, right? It’s truly about living each day to its fullest and just, you know, enjoying the little things in life, um, and prioritizing relationships, right? And things that bring us joy over this, hustle culture that sadly has become, you know, the, the norm in the United States.
, But you, you mentioned happiness, Emma. What do you see as the biggest misconception about happiness that perhaps folks in the U. S. have right now?
Emma: I think, you know, in many ways, society teaches us that we’ll be happy when we achieve this, [00:03:00] when we consume this, when we look like this, when we have this. That’s what all the advertising agents everywhere are trying to get you to think. And we think that’s true. You know, I’ll be happy when I get the job.
I’ll be happy when I get the relationship. I’ll be happy when I buy, buy this. And the truth is. Research shows that although you might have a quick dopamine high in the moment, it’s actually not going to last and you’re going to be chasing more, which is I think why there’s such a feeling of emptiness for a lot of people.
Um, because that’s actually not where true fulfillment and happiness comes from. Um, that’s what psychologists called hedonic happiness, which is like sex, drugs, and rock and roll, like money, fame, popularity, whatever, material things, anything that’s like a central pleasure, anything that it gives you little.
Dopamine kick. And it’s kind of like, um, it’s about me, myself and I, right. It’s really about yourself. And then this, there’s another form of happiness called eudaimonic happiness, which is a happiness that you derive from connecting with something greater than yourself. You know, whether [00:04:00] it’s a cause, helping other people, doing something for the environment, connecting with divinity, whatever it is that is true for you, it’s connecting with something.
Beyond oneself and research shows at the level of the brain that kind of happiness lasts, so I wouldn’t even call it happiness I would call it fulfillment
doing something for others being compassionate things like that. Yeah
Jacqueline: so true. And going back to hedonic happiness, Emma, this also ties into the messaging of your book Sovereign, which is absolutely incredible. I finished it the other day, um, but you mentioned that, you know, the irony of this all is that in an attempt to pursue all of these innumerable external things that lead to these fleeting highs, right?
Like recognition, status, other’s approval. We dig ourselves into this hole because we ultimately abandon ourselves, you know, never letting us feel happy or whole. And, for someone who, who finds themselves. In that hole, how do you get out of it?
Emma: Mm hmm How do you get out of it? So
Jacqueline: The golden [00:05:00] question, right, Emma?
Emma: yeah, I mean I really think The first thing is awareness. Like if you’re in the hole and you’re like, I’m in the hole. And I realized that all that I’ve received and all that I have isn’t helping me right now. And all that I’m chasing isn’t helping me. That’s awareness.
That’s the first step. You know, you’ve heard that before. Awareness is the first step, but it truly is because if you’re asleep, you don’t know you’re asleep, you know, you have to wake up a little to be like, Oh, wait a second. This isn’t bringing me what I want. Okay. So, and then I would say the next step is to increase that awareness because as you increase your awareness, you start to see things more clearly and understand what it is that you need.
And that is where contemplative practices like breathing and meditation are 100 percent key because they expand your ability to be aware. I’ll share with you an example that you’ve kind of read about it in the book. When I was in college and I had an eating disorder where I would binge every time that I was [00:06:00] feeling unhappy.
And I didn’t, couldn’t control it. And what it was was, so every time I felt bad, like I just would just overeat something, whatever it was there. And one day I went to my very first meditation class ever, which was kind of a weird thing to do on campus at the time, like nobody was doing, it was like three people would do it.
And it was this very strict Korean Zen protocol where you’re staring at the ground for an hour and you can’t move and there’s no instruction. And it’s very stark and stern. And for a 19 year olds, that’s just not like your idea of fun. Right? So anyway, I’m sitting there doing this and thinking, I never, ever want to do this again.
The only reason I went, so I was trying to meet a guy who had a crush on who would go. And I was like, I didn’t care about the guy anymore. Like I’m out, like, get me out of here. After an hour, I couldn’t be, get out of there faster, fast enough. And the next day I was feeling down because I was often feeling down.
I think it was a soft, uh, I was, uh, what was a sophomore. And I walked in my dorm room and there’s this old. pizza that looks disgusting and it’s not even vegetarian and I’m vegetarian. So [00:07:00] I, but I was like, I’m just going to binge. And then I had a light bulb go off in my head. And the light bulb was, Hey, you always cry after you binge.
Why don’t you just cry first? I thought, you know, like I can do that, but that is what I’m talking about. The awareness that came in after one session that, and I went on my bed and I cried and I, when I was done crying, I remember sitting up and being like, Oh, I don’t want to binge anymore. It was such a realization.
And I never binged again ever. And not to say, you know, that just one meditation will heal your eating disorders or your addictions or whatever may, it may not. But what I’m saying is when you allow yourself, The space and time to build your self awareness, you begin to unlock freedom, you unlock sovereignty.
And that’s what I unlocked that day for myself. I was like, wow, I never, I never binged again. And whenever I’ve ever felt the need or I never actually felt the need to binge again, but whenever I’ve was like, I really want some chocolate right now. That was something I really was kind of like one of the things [00:08:00] I like to eat. Oh, like whenever I would have that, it would trigger me into, oh, okay. Why? How are you feeling? I feel like, oh, I’m feeling kind of not so great. That was triggering the desire. And I could tell. And then the more that I became aware like that, then the chocolate thing didn’t even come up anymore. It was more like, okay, oh, I’m not, I’m feeling kind of, kind of down right now.
Like,
What can I do to address that?
Jacqueline: Yeah. That’s so fascinating. That reminds me, Emma, I heard about, um, a study, the intent was to help, , folks lose weight, and they made them essentially journal their feelings every single time they went to open up their fridge. And they found that, obviously, in the group that, I guess, became more self aware of their emotions prior to that binge episode.
They actually lost more weight and it just goes to show you how, we act subconsciously, right? Pretty much like most of our lives are always on autopilot. So taking a step back and really observing, you know, what is going on in this moment?
What am I feeling? It’s so, so important. And I feel like, [00:09:00] Emma, your work is so needed, especially now because there’s so much noise, right? There’s so much overstimulation. And it’s funny, I talk about this a lot on my podcast too, but I used to be the type of person, and I still am sometimes, I’m growing, but I would constantly feel this need to always have to be listening to something, right?
Like, especially in this podcast, you constantly want to, Be on the forefront and be constantly learning and never quote unquote waste any time. So I would always, Emma, be inundating myself with information, whether it was, you know, podcasts or talks or music. And the stimulation was not healthy for me.
It did the actual like complete opposite of what I sought to do. Um, and what I’ve realized now is, you know, not overstimulating my brain and really being intentional about times of silence during my day.
Emma: Yes.
Jacqueline: a difference.
Emma: Yes. And you know, as a creative, it is key [00:10:00] for you to continue creating because, um, what the research shows, and this is why it’s, what you’re saying is so powerful and why I wish that for more people reclaim re. I don’t know what the word is, but it’s just like reclaim your freedom to have silence because that is when you get the creative spark and I’ll show you the research with you.
Um, you know, whenever I ask people, okay, when do you get your aha ideas or your best ideas? Like when do you get your best ideas? What kind of activities are you doing?
Jacqueline: Personally, when I’m out in nature, um, when I’m hiking, when I’m in the shower, times where it’s not opportune to have an idea because you can’t access something to write it down on, um, but yeah, pretty much those times.
Emma: Exactly. And that’s when your brain is in alpha wave mode. So you’re not in a high frequency mode. [00:11:00] Like right now, if you’re concentrating on the conversation, you’re more in high frequency mode. And you’re not like in Delta mode where you’re about to pass out. You’re in this in between space called the alpha wave mode.
And that is, it’s, that’s when you’re driving, when you’re hiking in nature, when you’re not on your phone. Like. information or you’re not listening to something actively processing what you’re hearing, but you’re in this kind of, um, quiet mode where you’re daydreaming mode or just. Just being right in the shower.
You’re just just enjoying right? So what happens in those moments? That’s when neuroscientists have found we’re most likely to come up with aha insights and to the to the problems We’re working on and Einstein knew this he would go and play I he would go and play Mozart because he knew that that would trigger off a wave in his brain, which we also know because for his research showing that Mozart triggers off a wave Alpha waves in the brain.
Yeah, and then he would come up with his insights and same with like Salvatore Dali, you know that the painter He would go and he would like sit back and like in his rocking chair and wait [00:12:00] until the ideas came to him And if he fell asleep because he got too relaxed, he would drop the key that was in his hand.
It would Fall on the floor, wake him up, and then he could grab it again and start over. Like, they actively put themselves in that spot, knowing this is where I’m going to get my insights. For myself, I’ve written two books, I’ve written thousands of articles, and I know that all the ideas, and even the stuff I put out on social media, they are ideas that come to me in meditation, that come to me in those quiet moments where I’m not actively focused.
So, going back to your point, by reclaiming your right for silence, for non stimulation, you are Getting in touch with your greatest creative potential because your brain is actually an active problem solving mode innovative You could call it into innovation. You could call it intuition. You could call it creativity to me.
It’s all the same thing You’re
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Emma: an idea. That’s novel.
Jacqueline: That’s so fascinating. Emma, is there any research that shows, like, what percentage of the day most people are in that alpha wave state [00:13:00] of mind. I’m, I’m really curious.
Emma: I Don’t know of that. I would like to know of that But I do know of a study that showed what percentage of time people are not thinking about what they’re doing which is 50 percent of the time At least, because this is an older study that with the iPhone had just come out for one year, so I don’t even want to know what it is now.
People are not present with what they’re doing, but oftentimes that is because they are, you know, stressing about the future or stressing about the past, which brings up a lot of negative emotions. So when you have a lot of stress, you are in fight or flight. Your brain is not in alpha wave mode. Your brain is not able to be innovative.
You know, it’s so interesting to me because a lot of times people are like, put so much pressure on themselves or companies put pressures on you and you’re in the stress mode to try and be an innovator. It’s like, well, that’s not going to happen. It’s only going to happen if you relax. And if you’re in a higher state of wellbeing and you’re not actively focused, which is the opposite of what happens a lot of the time.
Jacqueline: So interesting. Yeah. And it’s funny, even in the most mundane activities, right? [00:14:00] Like cleaning the dishes or even just cleaning my apartment. Like, that’s when I find myself the most relaxed. And I think it’s funny because You know, when you ask people, like, what are things that you enjoy, it’s, they’re most likely to fall within that state of being in, you know, alpha wave mode.
Um, but even too, for me, like, like baking, right? Just mindless activities, playing the guitar. , and I think it’s funny too, Emma, I’m sure there’s so much research on this, but that’s why I think like. Just reflecting on my childhood, my best memories were just doing things where I was completely immersed in the activity, right?
If that was like playing dolls with my sister or painting, and I’m trying to incorporate more of that now. I’m trying to bring out my inner child. I, you’re going to laugh. I hosted a pumpkin painting party with my friends last October and it was just. Um, it was such a fun event. I basically told people to bring a pumpkin, I provided the painting supplies, and we just painted for two or three hours.
And that day is so vivid in my mind because I was completely immersed [00:15:00] in the activity at hand. And again, sadly, I think as we grow older, we lose that, right?
Emma: Humans are the only. Species that quote unquote, stop playing into their, into their adulthood, old age and all the end. And look, if you’ve got a pet, you know, that dog or that cat, they’re still going to play. Right. But you’re so what you’re consciously doing by consciously sleep. Make putting on events like this is you’re allowing everyone to come back to that.
You could think of it as like innocent childlike Experience but actually by bringing people in the present moment researchers were never happier than when we’re in the present moment Even if you’re cleaning your toilet, but you’re in the present moment. You’re happier Then if you’re like cleaning that toilet and thinking about Hawaii and wishing you were there and, you know, of course, because so, but you know, that that’s, it’s so true.
And right now our lifestyle is robbing us of opportunities to be present, to be innovative and also to be happy because that also comes with being present, but with also relax. And [00:16:00] most people struggle with that because of the high levels of anxiety. Yeah. And that, so many people do, and we’re living in a time that is very.
Moving very fast, very unpredictable. We have over 60, 000 gigabytes of information coming at us. We do not learn tools and techniques to handle our mind or nervous system early on in life. So then we’re left as adults flailing around, feeling like what’s going on, right? So, and that’s one of the reasons I’ve done so much research on meditation and breath work in particular, because it is essential.
For us to be able to reclaim our sovereignty over our inner well being over our resilience and over the connection with our own selves, because you can forget who you are, what you are with the distraction and strain and stress of the everyday.
Jacqueline: So true. And I’m so glad you touched on breathwork because this is definitely an area that I wanted to cover with you. You have done such incredible research, but can you just at a very high level explain the implications of breathwork when it comes to [00:17:00] resetting our nervous systems and, you know, I guess just strategies that we can use when we’re in that fight or flight mode?
Emma: Yeah. I’ll start with my own story. Um, that I was in New York city during nine 11. So I saw the second plane crash and. Um, after that, I had a lot of anxiety every day, every morning at 8 30 before leaving my apartment, I would just shake living in Manhattan and, um, and I tried all sorts of things. I did not want to go the medication route, but I, you know, I tried.
I did hot yoga like five times a week. I did a lot of different things and it wasn’t enough. You know, it wasn’t getting at the root cause and it wasn’t until I walked into a breath work class called art of living, um, which is a nonprofit that started in India and it’s based in the yoga tradition, but it’s this very own unique.
breathing technique called sky breath meditation. And I walked in thinking, Oh, what is this? You know, after learning the technique that instructors like do this for 40 days, and then you’ll notice if, you know, if this works for you. And so I did it for 40 days thinking, this is not going to work just like [00:18:00] everything else, but it worked.
You know, I was able to sleep again. I was able to feel peace. I was able to feel joy. I was, I was walking around New York and. You know, nobody really comes up to New York, but if anybody was going to ask for directions or anything, they were coming to me all of a sudden, everybody’s coming, like, what’s going on?
And I walked by a storefront and I saw, I was smiling, like just walking down the road. My nervous system was like, and you know, it had been really triggered by, you know, the, the, the. the traumatic events of that day, and it was back to normal. And I was able to function successfully and get into the highest rank grad school and so forth and so on.
And so then I went to psychology. I did a PhD in psychology and I did some of my research on meditation on different forms of meditation. And then fast forward, like 10 years later, I was working with veterans with trauma. So veterans returning from Afghanistan and Iraq with trauma and, um, and the medications.
We’re working for many of them or they didn’t want to take them because of the side effects. And then they also weren’t really sticking through a lot of therapy. A lot of people dropping out. [00:19:00] And then they were self medicating with weed and alcohol at night. And it was just tragic. The level of suicide still to this day.
And so I thought, you know what, the breathing work for me, let’s just. see if we can do a study on them. So I just wrote a bunch of grants and finally got enough funding to like start a study. And we saw that after a week of learning the sky breath meditation, which for veterans and military is offered through a nonprofit called project to welcome home troops.
It’s offered at no, no cost to them, which is really cool. If anybody’s interested, who’s military veteran or. family member of, um, and after one week, their anxiety had normalized. Many of them no longer qualified as having post traumatic stress, but after one month and one year, it was the same. So, suggesting that that one week of that experience sort of reset their norma nor uh, their nervous system, it normalized their nervous system where they were back to where they were before, so they could move on with their lives.
And there’s a documentary called Free the Mind that was created about This study, if anyone’s interested in watching that, but so breath [00:20:00] work since then, I’ve been, you know, I’ve looked at it for, um, uh, mental health in college students. We ran a study at Yale comparing the breathing to a control group, but also using other kinds of interventions like mindfulness based stress reduction and emotional diligence training.
And we saw that lo and behold, the breathing practice had the most impact, the sky breath meditation, uh, even. More than the traditional, you know, there’s a lot of research on mindfulness, but it makes sense to me Why? Because you’re not just addressing the mind, you’re going into the nervous system
Healing traumas.
There’s other, you know, other ways. It’s doing that. So again, we studied just that Technique the sky breath meditation. There are many techniques being taught out there on on YouTube and so forth I can’t speak to all those because I haven’t researched them But one thing I do know having looked into this is that different breathing techniques are going to do different things for you and some Breathing techniques were taught to warriors in the past to help them go to war But if you’re trying to sleep better at night, you might not want to do that breathing, you know So I do think [00:21:00] people should learn from a trained and qualified instructor.
Jacqueline: Right. That’s so fascinating. Beyond meditation and deep breathing, what other strategies, um, can folks employ for, for specifically people who deal with like, Rumination and intrusive thoughts, and I’m sure meditation and, you know, deep breathing help with that, but for folks who really struggle with intrusive thoughts like I’ve also read a lot about cognitive reframing right over past experiences and actually like being able to change your relationship to that event, right?
Because we can’t change the past. That’s an area that I find super interesting. What have you learned in, in that regard with like reframing techniques?
Emma: I think reframing techniques can work really well if something’s going on that’s not a huge deal. Like, let’s say you get a parking ticket. It’s annoying, but you can reframe it as, you know what, I got to the store faster and I’m getting home faster and I’m just going to consider this a donation to the city because I kind of like it here, right?
Like, you’re
reframing, yeah, but [00:22:00] then if it’s a big fear, big anxiety, like, oh my gosh, I’m giving this public talk in front of 3000 people in three days and I can’t sleep and anticipation or whatever, or my partner just cheated on me and I am completely gone nuts in that moment. Of high stress, you’re not able to reframe because the emotion centers in your brain are so activated.
You’re in fight or flight that you actually have loss of prefrontal regulation, which is you have, you lose the ability to think with reason and logic when you are that activated. And so in that moment, what do you do? And, you know, sometimes people come up to me like, Hey, don’t be so stressed. And you’re just like, this is not
Jacqueline: It’s the worst thing to say.
Emma: right, not helpful.
So what then? And that’s where you have to go into the body because you have, you can, uh, I’ll tell you a story. Um, so 12 years ago, my husband walked in the room, and he was pale, and I said, What’s wrong? And he said, Jake was in an IED. So Jake was a Marine Corps officer in charge of the last vehicle on a convoy going across [00:23:00] Afghanistan.
One of my husband’s friends, and he, all the vehicles passed safely, but Jake’s drove over a roadside bomb. And in that moment, I don’t think we can even imagine. Just the trauma of it, the, the noise, the blasting noise, the excruciating pain of severe injury, you know, the shrapnel flying, everything. So when he opened his eyes, he saw that his legs were really profoundly injured.
Okay. And you can imagine the pain. I mean, I don’t even think we can imagine the pain, right? But, and, and that moment. Usually, you would fall unconscious with shock, but Jake, he had been trained to remember a breathing technique for these moments, and he got into that breathing technique, and because he did that, he was able to regain the ability to think clearly.
Remember, when you’re in this high state, stress mode. You cannot think clearly, right? But the breathing calmed his nervous system down enough that he was able to think clearly enough to check on the other service members in the vehicle, to give orders, to call for help, to tourniquet his own legs, and to think of propping them up before falling unconscious.
He was then urgently [00:24:00] transported to Germany and Walter Reed, and he was told he would have died that day if he had done what he did. How did he manage that level of stress and the ability to think clearly regardless? It’s unimaginable,
but that’s why I’m saying that breathing gives you sovereignty. And in a time when we need things to work, work well, work fast, it is the fastest way for you to retrain yourself to be calm in a moment of peace.
Trauma in a moment of high angst
and because you are addressing the nervous system at the level of the nervous system So I would say come back to the body and it if you are, you know having those ruminative thoughts or you’re just really strongly anxious do the breathing and And and then if that’s if not available to you Get back in the body.
So oftentimes we’re like way out in space when we’re anxious, right? So it’s like coming back, whether it is just like putting your bare feet on the ground, right? Doing some [00:25:00] grounding or whether it is giving yourself an oil massage. This sounds really cheesy, but it’s an Ayurvedic technique. You know, Ayurveda is like traditional Indian medicine and they immerse.
People in oil who have like those kind of intrusive thoughts because it automatically makes you feel grounded. Um, and there’s some research on this. I think there need, we need, deserve more research on this. But if you’ve ever tried it, if ever you’re feeling highly anxious, warm up some like sesame oil, coconut oil, something like, warm it up, go in a warm room, put the heater on, put the oil on your head, ears, under your, you know, on your scalp, your whole body, and you will start and just sit there for 20 minutes.
You’re gonna see how you start to ground and come back into the body because sometimes when we’re anxious we just It’s almost like we don’t want to be here, but then we get so, um, uncentered, you know? So that’s, this is some techniques. And then also like a lying down meditation, yoga nidra, um, is very powerful.
We’re just lying down and then going through the body. It really is very [00:26:00] soothing. There’s a meditation app called Sattva that I love. It’s absolutely free. S A T T V A. And it has really nice meditations like that, like the yoga nidra.
Jacqueline: So many things come to mind, Emma. I guess the first is, on a much smaller scale, and I’m so glad to hear that your husband’s friend survived and was able to, just. Activate, that parasympathetic state in a really, really stressful situation. But even for me, I think of last year or two years ago, I sliced my finger, um, while trying to clean a new knife set, not my brightest moment.
But in that moment, I immediately just stopped and I took a deep breath. And I was able to think next, okay, where do I need to go? Where is the nearest urgent care? Where is the nearest hospital? But that was kind of like a gut reaction on my part. And again, I don’t know if everyone has that or perhaps that’s because I try to, , create more of a sense of, of silence, uh, in my daily routine where I do encounter stressful situations like that, but certainly helped me.
and one of the Other thing too, Emma, that I have found very helpful. So I’m, I’m Christian and my faith [00:27:00] is a big part of, My journey with WellnStrong and, you know, just in everything I do. But one thing I have found when I am really in the midst of anxiety is I just recite Bible verses in my mind, and I have them plastered all over my wall.
Like even right now on my desk, I have one that says, um, it says the peace that God gives us when our focus is on him is unexplainable. , and I just recall even when I was younger, you know, my mom would come in my room and just. Give me a verse if I was experiencing anxiety. And I would hold on to those verses so tightly, Emma, that not only did I memorize them, but they actually became ingrained, right, in my subconscious.
So I think just to be able to have something to pull out, right, like in those times, whether it’s a verse, a song, um, even other things like essential oils, right, which have been shown to cross the blood brain barrier, have been so, so helpful, um, you know, lavender, peppermint, things that know, people don’t necessarily give much credence to, they don’t think they really work, but they really, they really [00:28:00] do.
Emma: Yeah. No, absolutely. And the other day I was with my seven year old and we just, he
got sick.
Jacqueline: a fun age.
Emma: I know. And we got, we, he got sick. So we both couldn’t attend the class that we were signed up for. We were both going to do like a meditation class. He was doing a kid’s version. And so, and, um, and he reads dog man all the time.
I don’t know if you’re aware, familiar with dog man. And so all of a sudden he says, mom, we can’t control the wind, but we can adjust our sales. And that was something he had read in Dogman,
Jacqueline: Wow.
Emma: and he had ingrained somehow in his system. And here we are, and he is telling me this wisdom, sharing this beautiful quote, and he’s seven years old, and he’s teaching me, but he’s ingrained it himself.
So, you know, I think that’s so beautiful, and I think in our society we learn a lot of things. But we don’t learn wisdom. We’re not taught wisdom and what your mom did for you and what you do for [00:29:00] yourself. He’s bringing these verses into your life, holding onto them, the wisdom in them, the comfort in them, and then pulling them out as a tool that, and maybe it just most naturally springs out of you.
I know for me, sometimes when I’m in a certain situation in my life, suddenly I have a song verse that comes. You know, I remember my grandfather was very ill, and I was trying to figure out, do I go, do I not, do I have to do my exams? And like that song, you know, should I stay or should I go, like, came coming up.
But it was just so interesting how our subconscious like brings up those things that we need in that moment. Yeah, so I love that you shared that, and I, I wish everyone had that, you know, had, you know, mantras or phrasing, something, because, and what, what you also consume, you are what you need. So, you consuming You know, Bible verses or wisdom, whatever it is you’re consuming is then becoming part of your mind and part of your protection.
Jacqueline: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And, and Emma, you [00:30:00] mentioned tools and I just thought of something, I forget if it was a therapist or someone had mentioned this to me years ago when we were discussing tools, right. To address anxiety. And it was so interesting. I forget the analogy. They used, but they basically said, like, some tools, if you’re in a hole, right?
Some tools will bury you deeper and some tools will help get you out. And I really started to think about that. And I started to think about, okay, what are the tools that are, you know, burying me deeper in this hole? And it’s funny because I feel like people with like, even OCD, like there are certain things that they will do to help them quell like the uneasiness in the moment, but in the long term, actually, like, make the condition worse, right? So if that’s like, I mean, you know this better than anyone, but if, you know, you’re feeling anxiety and like your first, gut reaction is to, Oh, I have to call this person. You call the person and you feel better in the moment, but in the long run, it doesn’t alleviate anything. And it just keeps creating like this cycle, right?
It’s [00:31:00] like that one thing we have to go to. So I just. Um, it was really interesting for me to look at, okay, what are, you know, what tools am I using and are these actually addressing the situation in the short term or the long term?
Emma: Yeah. Or making things worse. And I, I think that a lot of in our society, we’re not really taught how to handle our emotions. Right? So it’s just so easy to just not feel good. And then let me just go doom scroll. Let me just watch more Netflix. Let me just go over exercise, overwork, keep myself busy, do this, do
that, the other. Because they’re trying to feel better. But when they do it, I mean, the emotion is still waiting for you at the end of that whole thing, except you’re more beat up because of your drug of choice, whatever it was, maybe it was alcohol, but whatever it was, it’s
all just delaying the inevitable, but tiring you out in the process.
So
Jacqueline: Yeah. Speaking of tiring out, Emma, um, so I met a new friend, uh, at a coffee shop. Now I, nowadays I work at coffee shops to just get out of my apartment, but, um, I asked him, what potential podcast topics he thinks I should have on the show. One of which was. [00:32:00] burnout. And, we all have experienced burnout at some point in our lives.
I feel like I’m also in a season of it right now. I’ve taken well and strong full time now. I actually left my, my full time job, um, that I’ve been in for eight years, about three weeks ago. So it has certainly been an adjustment, but I do find myself, you know, in, in a cycle of burnout and I’m really trying to practice what I preach, Emma, but could you provide, me and other listeners with some actionable strategies to address burnout and, and really create balance because I have certainly been struggling with it lately.
Emma: So, I mean, first I want to just start with the fact that everyone has individual needs. And they may be different and some people may need more of the self care piece and some people don’t need as much, right? So everybody knows you have to know yourself with regard to that, but there’s different levels of burnout.
There’s like physical burnout, there’s emotional burnout, there’s mental burnout. So really, um, addressing it at every level. I mean, I would always start with the body. [00:33:00] Like this is our dwelling. This is our home, right? So. How is it doing? Like, is it getting the rest it needs? Is it able to sleep at night? Is it getting the food it needs?
Is it getting enough of that? Is it getting the hydration? Is it getting the exercise? Is it getting the sunshine? Like just the basics. Is this taken care of? And if not, how do I structure my day more so that I can make sure this So that’s one thing. And then there’s the mental burnout, which is
just, again, what we’ve been talking about.
Like, are we just consuming constantly? The mind is bombarded and exhausted, right? I mean, I, every two or three months I go for a silent retreat. Um, again, with the art of living. They have these three day silence. I can do them online or I could do them in person. But the point is that for three days, I don’t consume anything and I’m doing all these meditations that are clearing me out.
I kind of feel like it’s like a deep cleaning and I come out, first of all, I get a lot of creative insights there, but I also come out of it feeling like, Oh, like. You know, more aware, but also more [00:34:00] clear, more energized, ready to, you know, and I think in a time and age when we’re getting so bombarded, it’s really important to be able to clear your mind.
And also on a daily basis through meditation, through times without your phone, like, Hey, until 9, 9am, I don’t have my phone on like after 7pm, I don’t have my phone on. Why do we have to be slave to our technology that takes over our mind?
Again, you are what you eat. So it’s like, what am I consuming? Is it nourishing me or not?
I try to have I have very good boundaries with the
news, for example.
Jacqueline: you Emma, what are some of your boundaries?
Emma: Well, I usually hardly check the news. I mean, really hardly do. And when I do, I’m also super aware. I’m like, these are going to be just negative headlines because this is what activates the sympathetic nervous system. And it gets people to keep clicking and then people can click on ads.
That is what’s going on. Oh, and it’s very obvious. And, and, and, and journalists will not fight you on this because this is what’s going on. How can we get you to click on ads? But the point is, There are millions of people every day, helping their neighbors, taking care of other people’s kids, [00:35:00] loving on strangers, you know, being kind, being compassionate.
You don’t hear about that. You only hear about the one horrific murder that happened, and you hear about it in detail. It’s like, why? Why do I need to know that? But I don’t hear about all the stuff that’s happened. You know, people, I really feel, you know, and we know this from research too. Most people are good people.
Like, there’s not, you know what I mean? But so you’re looking at the news, right? So if you consume the news three times a day for 45 minutes, you’re, you are consuming the scary and the ugly and the scary. And then, then you wonder, okay, well, why does my mind feel like crap? You know? So again, we are what we eat.
So I have really good boundaries with the news. I hardly watch it, but if I do, I’m looking at the headlines and I’m also aware that the headlines are trying to get me to think a certain way.
Right.
Because you can look at different news at places. They’re going to tell you a different headline. So I, it’s, uh, it’s mind conditioning, which is a nicer way of saying brainwashing.
I’m sorry, but like [00:36:00] I lived in China where the, where the headlines were all positive. Everything was positive. We would laugh about it. We’d be like, look, all the headlines are positive. That can’t be true. But then you come here and like, oh, all the headlines are negative. That can’t be true either. Like all of it is trying to get you to do something.
Most likely click on ads, but also think a certain way because of a political party thinks this, that, whatever. I just feel like it’s time to reclaim our sovereignty over our own mind, which means Spending more time connecting to yourself every day, silence every day, meditation every day, walks in nature or just walks around the block without your phone, you know, and just because remember that you are sitting on a gold mine on innovative, creative ideas and solutions to offer the world and we need everyone to dive deep into that gold mine rather than being told what to think, connect with yourself, with your sovereignty, Bring about the innovative potential in you, especially you, and especially anyone who’s listening to this podcast, who’s [00:37:00] probably a younger generation.
I cannot even imagine the overwhelm that I would feel if I was 20 landing on this planet right now.
But, um, anyways, I’m going on, but just. I really feel like, uh, on this planet right now, we need everyone to show up at their greatest potential, their greatest innovative potential, creative potential and energy.
So highly recommend more of that the last piece is the emotional sovereignty piece, you know, and that’s really learning to. to feel your emotions and not to dig them, not to throw them under the carpet or try to drink them away or weed them away or whatever. Just allowing yourself to go through them and to heal through them using, you know, techniques like the breathing or other ways that you can just, uh, be free from them because you’ve actually gone through and healed them as opposed to try and bury them, because then they’re going to pursue you for the rest of your life.
Jacqueline: Mm hmm. I know. Suppression, I feel like, is the first, uh, we all try to suppress that we don’t particularly like to feel, right?
Emma: Yeah.
Jacqueline: defense mechanism. But I don’t know. How can one express emotions, Emma, in a healthy [00:38:00] manner?
Emma: Well. I mean, the first thing is to become aware of the emotion, right? And then to experience, allow yourself to experience it. You know, like a child will experience their anger a hundred percent, and then they’re not angry anymore. Two minutes later,
an adult can be angry. Yeah. And an adult can be angry for the rest of their lives.
You know, I mean, again, do you want to have an angry outburst at your boss? No. Like, no, you don’t want to do that. That might not work out well for you. However, don’t try and go and suppress that emotion. Like after, you know, go home and like be with it, meditate with it. Like it’s emotion is energy in motion.
And when you remember that, like, Oh, this is energy I can work with. I give my attention to it. I move it in my body. Like, you know, you can move it, exercise, yoga, whatever, but not suppressing, allowing it to be. Sometimes also anger is a sign that something needs to change, right? But then the best way to change it is not through expressing yourself in a moment of high, high anger because you’re probably going to say and do things you regret, right?
So, but it is really learning [00:39:00] to be with our feelings and that’s something we have not learned. We’ve learned to suppress.
Jacqueline: Yeah, so good. This reminded me I had an episode, um, one of my first episodes actually, we were talking about just, the power of the mind and, one thing, um, my interviewee said, Jimmy Page was that he’s like, , when you can get out of your body, like, yeah. When you’re in the midst or the thick of something like just start moving, right? Like the second you have a really angry feeling, go for a walk. Like, just like you were saying, that energy, it just helps your body also process it differently, which I find so interesting.
Um, but to that point too, Emma, I feel like. There are also folks that could kind of take it to the extreme. But for me, I love running now.
And I used to run in college. I stopped for a few years, but now I’m getting back into it because of the mental health benefits that it provides, and I’m starting to realize that I may be going a bit overboard, , because of those mental health benefits that I get from it. So, I guess my question for you is, [00:40:00] how do we define, like, a healthy boundary with an outlet, right?
So, like, exercise is healthy, it’s a healthy outlet for, you know, emotional expression or but how do we avoid letting it become too much to the point where it’s unhealthy. Does that make
Emma: No, absolutely. In fact, if you, if you, in that, that documentary, free the mind that was done on our study with veterans, one of the veterans dropped out. And I remember him telling me, I’m not ready to let go. He was not ready to forgive himself for something he had done by accident
Jacqueline: Wow.
Emma: and he was still holding onto that.
And 60 miles a day. Okay. So that’s a lot, you know, and you’re going to wear out your knees, you’re going to wear, you know, cause he wasn’t ready to go through the letting go process. But. Again, you can take things to extreme. Like I know someone else is another veteran and he just goes to the jujitsu gym twice a day.
In addition to his full time job as a policeman. And so his wife doesn’t see him very much, you know, and okay. These things are [00:41:00] healthy in a sense that they’re helping you get it. But in terms of trauma, it does really need to be. But in terms of other ways to express the energy that is emotion, you know, there are other ways that are like creative ways.
Um,
Jacqueline: Painting.
Emma: painting writing. Like I have struggled with loneliness a couple of several times in my life, very intensely. And I wrote articles about it, like what to do when you’re feeling lonely and things like that. And then I get people to this day, thanking me for that article. And I’m like, I wrote it out of that pain and, um, there are other ways to move the energy again.
There’s like, there’s the breathing, there’s the movement and movement doesn’t have to be an abusive experience for the body. See, that’s where you constantly have to re like, uh, we don’t, we’re kind of divorced from our body. Like we don’t realize that our body is the sacred home that needs to be tended to.
We usually only tend to it after we fall sick. And for some people, that’s when they’re 50, 60 and like, Oh, what? Like eating hamburgers every day wasn’t a [00:42:00] good thing, like, but it’s just too late at that point. You don’t want to be doing repairs then. You want to right now be checking in, um, I love how I feel after running, but my body’s telling me it hurts, like it’s too much.
Like maybe I need to go down to three days a week. And maybe the other days I’m going to do an Active yoga class or a Pilates class that doesn’t bang on my knees and my joints, you know But that still gives me a sense of endorphin, you know endorphin
rush. It also helps me move the energy in my body
Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that. No, that’s great advice. One other thing too, Emma, that I have found very helpful, and I’m sure you have this practice seeing as you’re, you know, you’ve written many articles and books, but I love journaling. And I, it’s funny, I actually have like three separate journals now, which is a little bit much, um, but they’re all dedicated to different things One of them’s a prayer journal, , and what I love doing is that’s just a way for me to just, it’s another form of praying, right?
Like I like going on prayer walks in the morning. I’ll just, you know, pray at night by my bed, but I love [00:43:00] actually writing down my thoughts and my prayers. And it’s a different. way to communicate with God. Um, but that also brings me joy, right? So to your point, like it really is about switching it up and experimenting.
Um, and it also is just a way to alleviate my burdens, right? Like actually take something exactly like just open hands, like surrendering, you know, everything that you were carrying on your shoulders and just that act of writing it down. Um, it’s so powerful and it does so much. So I, I love this conversation.
Um, I know so many listeners are going to benefit from all of that. the tactical strategies as you shared, but the beauty, Emma, is that they’re simple things to do. Right. And many of them are free. I think all of them are free. , and they only require, you know, 10, 15 minutes of time during your day. And that’s something I’ve really been trying to be more disciplined with Emma, you know, just setting aside those 10 or 15 minutes to do a routine or a wind down or, Meditation and prayer, but so, so important.
Emma: Yes. So important. Thank you so [00:44:00] much.
Jacqueline: No, absolutely. There is, again, there’s so much to talk about. We covered so much. I do hope to have you back on the show at some point soon, but I do want to be conscious of your time. So with that, where can listeners find you? Where can they pick up copies of your awesome books?
Emma: So my books are available on Amazon. Um, the latest book is sovereign reclaim, your freedom, energy, and power in a time of distraction, uncertainty, and chaos. Um, my earlier book is the happiness track. Um, and I’m on Instagram and Facebook at the happiness track. And I also have a podcast called sovereign conversations where we just dive deeper into this idea of sovereignty.
and my website is www. iamsov. com, I A M S O V.
com.
Jacqueline: that. Well, I will be linking all those in the show notes and Emma, my last question for you and this is my favorite one to ask and that is, what does being well and strong mean to you?
Emma: well and strong means having a heart full of love and gratitude, [00:45:00] um, and perspective, and a mindful of perspective.
Yeah.
Jacqueline: I love that. Beautiful. Well, Emma, thank you again for all the incredible work, that you’re doing. , and I hope to have you on again at some point soon.
Emma: Thank you so much for having me.
