In today’s episode, I sit down with Jon Noyes of Stand to Reason, a former atheist who once believed faith in God was intellectually unwarranted. After examining the evidence for Christianity, everything changed. Drawing from his background in the legal field, Jon shares how to engage doubt with clarity and compassion—and what it looks like to wrestle honestly with God through grief, loss, anger, and unanswered questions.
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00:00 How this conversation came together
03:45 Why faith-based wellness is needed
07:10 From elite lawyer to angry atheist
14:30 Dating a Christian for the first time
20:15 Walking into church as an atheist
26:40 The pastor who said “I don’t know”
31:50 Discovering Christian apologetics
36:45 Reading the Bible cover to cover
41:20 Trying to disprove the resurrection
46:55 Evidence vs empathy vs space
53:30 Is skepticism rooted in pain?
58:40 Can you be angry at God and still have faith?
1:04:45 Rebuilding trust with God after suffering
1:10:30 Remembering God’s faithfulness
1:14:40 Where to start reading the Bible
1:19:20 Faith, technology, and mental health
1:23:30 What it means to be well and strong
Jac: [00:00:00]
Jon, I spoke with Tim a few weeks back and I loved him — I told him, “I really want to be part of the Stand to Reason squad.” He immediately mentioned your name and said, “You’ve got to have Jon on the show.” So I reached out to Darcy right away, and I’m so glad we got you scheduled.
Jon:
Tim’s great. Truly one of the nicest guys — he has such a pastoral heart, he’s incredibly smart, and he’s absolutely killing it on YouTube. His channel grows every day. I don’t know if you watch Red Pen Logic?
Jac:
I do! And I originally came across Tim from an episode he did with Focus on the Family.
Just for context, I started WellnStrong — my blog — back in 2020. It began as a way for me to share the research I was doing for my mom, who has been battling stage four cancer for several years. I launched my podcast about two years ago. At first it was more medical — interviewing doctors — but over time it has shifted into a much more faith-based approach to wellness. I’ve been talking to apologists and pastors, and the show has really evolved into that direction.
Jon:
That’s amazing. Good for you, Jacqueline. Honestly — I’m inspired by you. And I’ll be praying for your mom, Maria. That’s hard. Cancer is… it’s really hard.
Jac:
Thank you. All of that to say — leaning into a faith-based approach to wellness is something I feel is deeply needed in this space.
Jon:
I agree. We need to put our faith in Christ — He’s the ultimate healer, the Great Physician.
Jac:
Exactly. And Jon, I love conversations that feel like this — just sitting down over coffee, nothing overly structured. We’ll go down a few rabbit holes, but to start: I know a bit of your story. You once described yourself as an angry atheist. For listeners who don’t know you yet, could you give a brief intro to your background and what ultimately brought you to Christianity?
Jon’s Story
Jon:
Yeah, that’s a great question. When I say “angry atheist,” I actually mean aggressive. I wasn’t outwardly miserable — I genuinely thought I had life figured out. My background is in law, and I worked at some of the nation’s top law firms doing appellate work, even cases before the Supreme Court.
One of my first cases was a death penalty appeal for ineffective assistance of counsel. The team I worked with — almost all of them eventually went to the White House under President Obama. My first boss, Don Verrilli, became Solicitor General, the top legal authority under Obama.
It feels like another life now, but I loved my legal career.
Alongside that, though — I was a convinced atheist. Not just indifferent — I believed it was foolish to believe in God. I would have called it intellectually irresponsible. And if I found out someone was a Christian? I’d say, “Let’s get coffee — I need to explain why that’s dumb.” I genuinely believed I had “evolved” in my thinking and Christians needed to evolve with me. I thought there was no room for God in a modern, scientific society.
I’d say things like, “You believe in Adam and Eve? Seriously? Nobody believes that.” Or, “Darwinian evolution is as solid as gravity — how can you not accept it?”
And when I confronted Christians — almost none of them gave me answers. Many got frustrated or emotional because I was aggressive. Conversations ended with the Christian storming off. And that was on me. I wasn’t looking for a civil dialogue.
I grew up in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and I didn’t have a single Christian friend. I thought I knew Christianity, but I actually knew almost nothing. I never stepped foot in a church until my twenties — and only because I met a girl.
Jac:
Who’s now your wife, correct?
Jon:
Yes — Rihanna.
So I moved from D.C. to Los Angeles kind of on a whim, and the very first night in California I met her at a housewarming party. When she eventually told me she was a Christian, I was horrified. We were starting to date and I thought, “I can’t date a Christian. How would we ever raise kids? This is completely incompatible.” Even as an atheist I understood the idea of being “unequally yoked.”
Eventually she invited me to church. And the experience was… wild. I ended up getting saved in a charismatic church — which is quite the introduction when you’re an atheist with zero church background.
We walked into the building and the music was blaring. Rock music. Incredible musicians — because it was Studio City and everyone was a professional. I thought church was monks humming hymns. This felt like a concert.
Then I saw things that made no sense to me — someone breakdancing during worship, people speaking in tongues, someone spinning in the corner, lyrics about blood washing over you. I remember thinking, “Not only are you wrong — you’re crazy.”
But then something unexpected happened. Over the next few weeks, as I kept going with Rihanna (because, honestly, I’d do crazier things for a girl I liked), I met Christians who were… normal. Cool, even. Creative, interesting, diverse — artists, musicians, doctors, lawyers, people from all over the world. They went out with me, had fun, and didn’t fit the stereotype I had in my head.
People began evangelizing me, though I didn’t know it. I’d find myself in their apartments talking about faith. Some Christians were incredibly intelligent, and they actually had reasons — some decent reasons — for what they believed.
The Membership Class Turning Point
My wife wanted to become a member of the church, so I went with her to membership classes. In my mind, I thought, “Perfect. I’ll learn how Christians really operate behind the scenes so I can dismantle their worldview better.”
Eventually we had an interview with the pastor, Pastor Dave. Rihanna shared her story first — which is amazing — and then he turned to me and asked, “Jon, what brings you in today?”
I said, “I’m glad you asked.”
I came prepared. Printed arguments. Evidence against the authenticity of the Bible. Claims that the Gospels were written centuries later, contradictions, scientific objections, evolution, carbon dating — you name it. I peppered him with questions for an hour.
And he didn’t pretend to know what he didn’t know. He said “I don’t know” more than any Christian ever had. He was honest — and that stood out to me.
At the end of the meeting, he hugged Rihanna and said, “We’d love to offer you membership.” Then he shook my hand and said, “Jon, we have enough members right now. Thanks for coming.”
He rejected me — which was actually the best thing he could’ve done. If he had welcomed me in just to “keep me around,” it would have confirmed my suspicion that Christians only cared about numbers.
But then, as he kept shaking my hand, he turned to his bookshelf, pulled off a book, and handed it to me. He said, “I’m not sure I answered your questions well, but I think the beginnings of those answers are in this book. Would you be willing to read it?”
It was my first introduction to Christian apologetics. And suddenly I realized: there were actual reasons to believe Christianity. At the time I didn’t think they were good reasons — but they existed. That was new for me.
Scripture + Apologetics
Around the same time, my in-laws gave me a New Believer’s Bible. I read it cover to cover — Genesis to Revelation — in three months. God was ministering to my intellect through apologetics and to my soul through Scripture.
When I finished it, I closed the Bible, brought it to Rihanna, held it up, and said, “I think this might be true.”
Because as I read, the text didn’t read like myth or fairy tale — it read like history.
This led me to deeper questions:
What explains reality better — naturalism or the existence of God?
Moral truth. The beginning of the universe. Consciousness. The soul. Human value. None of these fit coherently into my naturalism.
Eventually, I dove deeply into the resurrection — originally to disprove it. I expected to find zero evidence. But the more I read scholars like William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Mike Licona, Greg Koukl, and listened to J. Warner Wallace — the more I realized the evidence was compelling.
I became convinced Jesus truly rose. And if He rose, that confirms everything else.
I didn’t have a specific “salvation moment,” but eventually I surrendered and became a Christian. I went to grad school for Apologetics at Biola. I left the law firm to become a pastor. Then I planted a church. Six years ago Stand to Reason invited me to join their team. And now here I am — living a dream.
Jac:
That story is incredible, Jon. I loved every bit of it. I have a few follow-up questions…
Evidence, Empathy, or Space?
Jac:
You mentioned when you first met your wife’s pastor, you weren’t exactly looking to have a conversation. Today, how do you discern when someone needs evidence, empathy, or space? How do you know what to offer?
Jon:
I’ve never been asked that before. Great question.
First, I ask a lot of questions. I listen more than I speak.
Yesterday is a great example — my wife and I were at a local coffee/gelato shop called Tifa. The young woman working there was doing homework, so I commented on how great of a job that seemed. She was with a young man, and he eventually asked what I do.
Once I say I’m a pastor and speaker, the next logical question I ask is, “Are you a Christian?”
He said, “No, I’m an atheist.”
So I asked, “What do you mean by atheist?”
As he talked, I was reading him. He was open, engaged, not sharing deeply personal information. That tells me he’s not looking for emotional comfort — he needs evidence.
But if someone brings up suffering — “My mom has cancer,” for example — I’m not giving a philosophical argument for the problem of evil. That’s when empathy is needed. I’d say things like, “Is your mom a Christian?” And if so, “I’m so glad — she will be healed eventually.”
And then there’s space. Sometimes the pain is too deep and I’m a stranger. Space is where God often works.
In every conversation, I remember: I’m not the one who saves — Jesus saves. My job is to plant a seed, put a stone in someone’s shoe, and leave the rest to God.
Is Skepticism Rooted in Pain?
Jac:
Have you found skepticism is often rooted in pain? And why do people who experience deep pain seem to either run toward God or away from Him?
Jon:
It can be rooted in pain. There’s a book correlating atheism with broken relationships with fathers — and I personally have a difficult relationship with my dad, so that made me wonder.
Pain can push people into skepticism — but pain can also draw people toward God.
People in the West often feel self-sufficient. But in places where people have nothing, faith runs deep. When you have no earthly security, you lean on God.
For Christians, pain often grows our faith. Paul says our light and momentary afflictions are producing an eternal weight of glory. Trials shape us into people who can shoulder that glory.
A skeptic wrestling with suffering might say, “Why would God allow this?” But their worldview often has no hope to offer. In atheism, all you can say is, “I’m sorry. Life is just this way.”
Christianity gives hope that can’t be taken.
Can Belief and Anger Toward God Coexist?
Jac:
For the believer — can faith and anger toward God coexist?
Jon:
Absolutely. Read the Psalms. David cries out, “Where are You, Lord?” over and over. God invites honesty. He’s living and active — He enters our suffering with us.
We live in a fallen world. It’s okay to say, “This hurts. I don’t understand this.” Acknowledging pain is part of the Christian life.
We know how things ought to be, and we know what’s coming — but we’re living in the tension of the “already but not yet.”
Crying out to God is part of what it means to trust Him.
Reconciling God’s Protection With Real Suffering
Jac:
Right — and I wrestle with verses that say God won’t let our foot slip, that He sends His angels to protect us… but then Jesus also promises we’ll have trials. How do I rebuild trust with God after He permitted something painful?
Jon:
Great question.
We rebuild trust by returning to God’s promises.
God never promised a pain-free life. But He did promise:
We cry out to Him knowing He listens — and knowing He understands suffering. God the Father gave His only Son to the cross. Jesus wept at Lazarus’ tomb even though He knew He’d raise him. He suffered deeply.
God knows suffering better than we ever will.
And Romans 8 assures us He works all things for good for those who love Him. We may not see how, but we can trust the One who keeps His promises.
When my second daughter, Phoebe, nearly came 12 weeks early, my wife was on strict bedrest. Every night I knelt and read Psalm 119 out loud. I cried out, “God, where are You? Help us.”
And even in tragedy — we find God there. He meets us in suffering. Maybe not how we expect, but He’s present.
Keeping a Record of God’s Faithfulness
Jac:
Yes — and God can handle our anger and our doubt. I think of Thomas after the resurrection. Jesus didn’t scold him. He said, “Put your hand in my side.” He met him in his doubt.
I actually keep a journal of God’s faithfulness — reminders of what He’s done in the past. Just because God permits one painful thing doesn’t erase the goodness He’s shown before. We have to remind ourselves of that.
Jon:
Absolutely. That’s why it’s so important for Christians to dig into Scripture. People tell me, “I want to hear God speak.” And I say — read your Bible. That’s where He speaks most clearly.
Even five minutes a day changes things. Scripture forms your worldview. It helps you understand God’s promises and His character.
And Christianity is unique among world religions — it’s not us climbing to God. It’s God coming down to us. He took on flesh. He embraced suffering. He meets us in ours.
Where to Start When Reading the Bible
Jac:
For someone wanting to read the entire Bible — believer or skeptic — where should they start?
Jon:
A Gospel. Always. They’re biographies of Jesus.
I recommend Mark — it’s short, fast-paced, and likely the earliest Gospel. You can read it in one or two sittings.
Then maybe Galatians or Ephesians — there’s so much hope and practical instruction there.
I wouldn’t start with Revelation.
For the Old Testament, Genesis is long but foundational. Judges is tough but fascinating. The Psalms are phenomenal for emotional honesty. Proverbs gives simple wisdom.
A great rhythm is:
But start with Mark.
Closing + Being Well & Strong
Jac:
Jon, this has been incredible. I looked at the clock — we’ve been talking for an hour and it feels like five minutes. This is episode one of many. Before we close, where can listeners find you?
Jon:
Everything is on str.org (Stand to Reason). That’s where you can find my talks, resources, and speaking schedule. I’m launching a YouTube channel soon, but I’m navigating the tension of stewarding technology well — especially since I don’t allow my daughters to have social media.
Jac:
Smart. I always tell people — I don’t love social media, and yet the nature of my business requires it. I haven’t touched my personal Instagram in almost five years.
Jon:
I get that. With rising rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide since the advent of smartphones and unlimited data, we have to think intentionally about tech use. There’s a lot of research — Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation, Bad Therapy, and Scrolling Ourselves to Death — that points to this.
Technology can be used for God’s glory, absolutely. But it carries hazards too.
Jac:
Absolutely. Final question — my favorite one: Jon, what does being well and strong mean to you?
Jon:
Being well and strong means being firmly grounded in your identity. Our culture is in an identity crisis. People don’t know who they are.
As Christians, we are knit together in our mother’s womb. Made in the image of God. Of infinite value and worth — whether you’re a believer or not.
But for the Christian, even more:
You are called by name.
God goes with you wherever you go.
He never leaves or forsakes you.
You are His child — adopted into His family.
What God adopts, He never returns.
When we grasp this — truly believe it — it girds us up to face the trials of the world.
And the best part?
It’s true.
This isn’t positive thinking. This is reality.
If you’re a Christian, God looks at you and says, “Mine.”
He doesn’t need you — He wants you.
He uses you every day in His plan to redeem the universe.
That’s what it means to be well and strong.
Jac:
That is my favorite answer in the history of this podcast. Jon — thank you. I can’t wait for round two. I know listeners will be so blessed by this conversation.
Jon:
Praise God.
