When trials befall us, we’re often tempted to question God’s goodness or power, and because we want an end to our pain, we try to figure out why God has allowed particular trials into our lives. We reason that if we can just understand what God is doing, we can work towards a way out of our suffering. I am so excited to share with you guys my conversation today with Pastor Matt Howell, as we discuss some profound questions about suffering. Pastor Matt grew up in Dallas, TX and graduated from the University of Oklahoma in 2003. After graduation, he served as an intern with RUF at LSU for two years where he developed a heart for pastoral ministry and met and married his wife, Kathryn. After 11 years of being a campus minister with RUF, Matt now serves as a pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, in Memphis, Tennessee. While we can’t know God’s specific reasons for the trials that he allows into our lives, we do know that He has a big-picture purpose for the sufferings we endure.
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*Unedited Transcript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] I love conversations like the one we’re about to have and just to, to kick things off. So Matt, I mentioned. This to you on the phone when we first spoke, but I first heard about you from my friend, Laura, about two years ago, when I first moved to Greenville and she shared your relationship series with me when you were still at RUF at UTK.
And I heard that and right away, I was like, this is my favorite pastor of all time, proceeded to go binge all of your sermon series. And it’s funny. I texted her yesterday and I was like, Laura, guess who I’m talking to tomorrow. And we both were like fangirling so hard. So. We both have just been so excited for this conversation.
I’m about to have with you. Um, and as I mentioned to you too, I mean, most of my conversations thus far have been around health and wellness. So don’t worry, I’m not going to throw any of those questions at you, but
Matt: That’s good. Cause I don’t know anything about any of that.
Jacqueline: what I’ve, I’ve been trying to do is kind of shift more in terms of looking at health and wellness through the lens of faith.
Right. Um, and that’s. What’s brought me the [00:01:00] most comfort, uh, especially over the past several months. But today’s topic that I really wanted to touch on with you. I woke up this morning and I was like, can’t wait to talk to pastor Matt about suffering because it’s the most fun topic I could come up with.
Um, it’s, it’s something we all experience in our lives and something that I think we often have the most questions about, right. Especially as Christians. So I’ve, I’ve heard you talk about these, these three dimensions of suffering, which I think serves as a great framework, and those are the theological, the philosophical, and the deeply personal, and I’d like to kick it off with maybe one of the most.
Challenging to answer, um, among those three, the theological aspect. And I’m sure you’ve heard this question many a time from both Christians as well as non Christians, but how do you answer the question of how can a good God Allow suffering. Let’s just get right into it,
Matt: good grief,
Jacqueline: Loaded question to start off [00:02:00] with.
Matt: That is amazing. That, that’s the first question. Um,
Jacqueline: Gotta keep them engaged, right?
Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. I mean, it is, it’s such a, it’s such an important question and in some ways it, it is like the question, and, and, and, well, the, the hard part about that, um, question is that the real answer is. Like the ultimate answer is we don’t know,
which is such an unsatisfying spot.
That doesn’t mean that we can’t talk about it. There aren’t other aspects of how you engage that question or how you think about suffering, but there is, you do butt up against. Mystery and you don’t you don’t get an airtight total. Oh, yes, that makes perfect sense explanation that just totally explains trauma and senseless murders and like all the horrific things that just like, oh, okay, that all perfectly makes sense.
Now you’re still left with tension and still left with [00:03:00] paradox. But anyway, so I would say, well, um, If someone’s asking me this question, I would, I would be sure to, on the front end, distinguish, and you kind of said this at the beginning, there’s different ways to think about this, but is this, is this someone that’s actually like wrestling with the philosophical or the academic make?
nature of the question, or is this really just coming from a real visceral, raw place of hurt? And if it’s a place of hurt, like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve sat with people before who just went through something really horrible. And they’re asking me this question, why, why would God allow this to happen? And I tried to not answer that question in that space.
Cause that’s, that’s not really the. That’s not what they need. That’s not, they’re not really asking the philosophical question there. They just need to hurt and they need someone to be with them. So if it’s a, I’m hurting, I don’t answer that question. If it is somebody [00:04:00] that’s like, okay, Hey, I’m wrestling with this as an idea.
I don’t understand how God could be all powerful and loving. It’s like, okay, well, let’s talk about it. So, um, so if, if, uh, if the argument is. You know, premise one, if God were all powerful, he would want to end suffering. This is like the classic argument against the existence of God. Premise one, if God were all powerful, uh, he would have the power to end suffering.
Premise two, if God were all loving, he would want to end suffering. Premise three, suffering exists, therefore an all powerful and all loving God can’t exist. Which is a logical argument, like that argument, yes, flows, and that makes sense. As a Christian, I would challenge premise two. Which is to say, if God were all loving, he would, uh, want all suffering.
He would, he would [00:05:00] not want suffering to exist. Uh, and I would say, you know, God does give us reasons for why he allows suffering in scripture. He, he, again, they’re not all. They’re not, it’s not an exclusive list, but he does give us reasons and they’re, and usually they’re situational. So it’s hard to take those situational answers and apply them to your particular situation, but he does give reasons.
And so you do have, you do have a God that allows evil and suffering to operate in the world in which he lives. And he uses them, he has his own purposes for them. And, um, so I think what you’re left with is, uh, a choice. You can either say, I’m going to, I’m going to, I live in a universe in which there is no God, and therefore that means that there is no meaning. And I’ll explain that in a second. Or I live in a universe. In which there is a God, but I don’t have all the answers. I don’t have all the information. It’s like, [00:06:00] those are your choices. Do I want to live in universe without any meaning, or do I want to live in the universe without all the information? The reason why I say, um, uh, the, the meaning thing, um, Martin Luther King Jr.
once said that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Like, as a Christian, he understood human history is this long, complicated thing, and it’s ups and downs, and there’s pain, and there’s suffering, and terrible things. But ultimately, it’s, it’s bending towards resolution. It’s bending towards justice, towards everything that’s going to be made right in the end.
Jacqueline: Mm
Matt: Uh, and it’s fascinating Ta Nehisi Coates, who’s a, you know, a modern day, uh, atheist, you know, popular writer. He took King’s quote and he says, I don’t believe that the moral art bends towards justice. I believe that it bends towards chaos. And just as, as someone who said, my worldview is. It’s chaotic.
There’s no order. There’s no ultimate story. There’s no resolution. There’s no point to any of this. So what that means is [00:07:00] you can experience suffering and pain and experience horrible things. And you may not like it. It may not feel good, but it has no point. There’s no ultimate reason for why it is. It just is.
And you’re just a part of a chaotic, random world. That’s the worldview. So I think Christianity is the only worldview that gives you resources to understand. That’s suffering while in many ways it is mysterious. It is, it is, it’s hard for us to know what the purpose is. There’s still a purpose and it still has meaning.
It still matters. It still counts. Like one of my, um, one of my favorite, uh, scenes in the gospels is when Jesus goes to the, to the tomb of his friend, Lazarus, and he, and he weeps. And it just shows you, if it’s true that Jesus is God in the flesh, which as a Christian, I think he is, then that shows you the disposition of God toward suffering, which is to [00:08:00] grieve over it, to weep over it, to show this, this matters.
It, it, it hurts this, this, this rips relationships and families apart. This is not the way it’s supposed to be. So, um, I would say, um, Yeah, that as a Christian, those are your choices, or at least I would say that that’s that’s how in one sense I would respond to kind of the big theological tough nature of suffering that question is, um, uh, just because we don’t know what the reason is doesn’t mean that he he knows he doesn’t have a reason for it.
Like one of the things that Tim Keller is famous for saying, you know, Tim Keller famous, late, famous Tim Keller in New York. He, um, he would say, if you have a God enough to be, uh, mad at, meaning like if God is, if God’s big enough, why, like, he could stop this. Why did he allow this? He’s big enough to, Be involved in some level in the reality of suffering.
If you haven’t got big enough to be mad at, then you haven’t got big enough [00:09:00] to have reasons that you, that you don’t always know. And I think, I think that follows. That makes sense. But again, that, that you bite up against mystery. You do bite up against, but I still, I’m not left with an answer, but.
Jacqueline: Right. Okay.
Matt: Those are some general thoughts on that.
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, that’s also good. And I mean, sometimes I think that like, if we can just understand what God is doing in the suffering, like we can begin to like work toward a way out of our difficulty, but we know through the book of Job that we can’t know God’s specific purposes in the trials, um, that he allows into our lives.
But you mentioned that, you know, God does have purposes for it for listeners who are unfamiliar with scripture. What are some of those purposes that, that God mentions?
Matt: the big, the big backdrop, ultimate purpose is for God’s glory. The reason why he does everything. Anything is ultimately, ultimately for his name, for his, his. Being to be honored and glorified, but as that gets trickled down into kind of smaller purposes, um, I would [00:10:00] say, I mean, the Bible gives lots of different reasons.
There’s lots of books that kind of go through all of the, all the particular examples that get given all throughout scripture. I think if you boil them down, there’s kind of, um, three or four big bucket reasons of what some of the purposes are. One is for people to encounter God. Like there’s a, um, so there’s a quote that I heard recently that said God’s office is at the end of your rope. And I, I love that expression. I love that idea of like, people. Encounter and meet God for the first time, most often in the places of suffering and crisis, like I have, I have yet, however many years I’ve been doing ministry, uh, I don’t know, maybe close to 20 years at this point. I’ve never had somebody tell me the story of, I was Uh, everything was going great.
My job was amazing. I was in perfect health. Everything was going great. And so I found Jesus [00:11:00] and became a Christian. It’s always, I was depressed. I hit rock bottom. I was, you know, addicted, went into rehab. This person broke up with me. My life was falling apart. And so you have these moments of suffering that God uses to, Get people to the end of their rope so that they can finally encounter God.
So I’d say that’s, that’s one purpose. Um, another purpose would be once someone has encountered God, God uses suffering to transform their relationship with God. There’s, there’s so many examples of this, of people who, I mean, this is just, in fact, I was reading this morning, I read, um, Charles Spurgeon’s, um, it was, you know, 19th century. English Baptist preacher as this morning and evening devotional thing that they’ve made from some of his writings and sermons and things. Anyway, he said this morning, I’m reading this morning. He said he was talking about storms on the water and he said, like, if your life is a sailboat, [00:12:00] uh, when, when the winds are calm, if the sail, the boat doesn’t move.
It’s only when the winds are strong, when the storms are blowing, that’s when the boat can get to its destination. So, uh, there’s so many examples of this, of how God really does use suffering in someone’s life to strip them of the idols and the things that they’re clinging to that they’re, they’re looking to for life, but they’re robbing them of life and robbing them of joy.
And so God takes those things away and it can feel like I’m dying. It can feel like tragedy. It can feel like awful, but it’s, it’s God stripping those things away. One, um, One of my favorite stories about this or examples of this Johnny Erickson Tata, who is, um, she’s run this, this ministry for, for people with special needs and disabilities for, uh, a long time, but when she was a teenager, she got in this very serious diving accident and you know, I’m talking about this woman, she’s got an amazing story.
She’s got these videos on YouTube of her telling her [00:13:00] story and walking through that experience and. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s otherworldly to hear her talk because she has, she’s been in a wheelchair for 50 years now and to have someone who has gone through something so horrible, she’s in touch with suffering and then she got breast cancer and
she has just been through it and to hear someone say every day, I’ve had to wake up and say, God, give me the strength to get through this day.
I cannot do this day. without you. And you do that for day after day, after day, after day for 50, however many years. And to hear her talk about the intimacy and the sweetness of Jesus, it is, it is otherworldly because you’re like, I don’t, I’m not in touch with suffering like that. And therefore I don’t feel like I have a, as deep of a sense of the nearness, the sweetness, the power of Jesus.
So anyway, that, I think here’s what’s crazy. In some of those videos, she says. She, I can’t remember exactly how she says it, but it’s something [00:14:00] like, I never would have written the script for my life like this. It’s, it would be too crazy. It’s too painful. It’s too chaotic. And yet I, now, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have
written it.
any change it. Yeah.
Jacqueline: That’s crazy. That’s wild. I feel like that’s, that’s the ultimate point where it’s like, I mean, none of us ever really quote unquote arrive in this life, but like to be able to look at your sufferings and say thank you for this, like,
that’s truly understanding. And like,
This could be a whole other episode, but it wasn’t really until my mom’s breast cancer recurrence in 2018
Matt: Wow.
Jacqueline: like, You know, dove, dove headstrong or head into my faith because I didn’t have anything else.
And I think like, I was looking to Google and doctors for all these answers of why her cancer came back and I didn’t understand. And what did we do wrong? And I realized like, those answers aren’t going to be found in a doctor. They’re not going to be found online. I might not even, I won’t know even on the side of [00:15:00] eternity.
Right. But I just found so much peace in knowing that like God was there. Right.
Right. So.
Matt: Yeah.
Jacqueline: I’ve just like had this insane faith journey, you know, since 2018 and there have been a lot of trials along the way, right? But like every time I experience one I look back and I say, okay Like God got me through this he’ll continue to get me through this but you mentioned something about prayer before and you know, I guess something I, I struggle with too is how do we pray in seasons of suffering?
So do we pray that God would remove whatever the source of the suffering is? Or do we pray like that woman that he would give us the
Matt: Mm-hmm. Yes, I do think it is a both and of God wants us to bring him our honest and true selves. And if there’s real [00:16:00] afflictions that we bear, I think it’s totally appropriate to say, God, take, take this away. And if you’re, if you don’t, then give me the strength to endure it.
And that same tension that you see, you see that. It just reminded me of the passage in Daniel. The fiery furnace.
They’re about to throw Daniel and his friends into this horrible, terrible execution chamber. And he says, God will deliver me. And even if he doesn’t, uh, you know, like it’ll be okay, essentially. And so I think there’s this, anyway, long story short, I think it’s, I think both prayers are good and right and appropriate to say, God, take this away from me and, if you don’t, would you give me the strength to endure it?
And those feel both appropriate responses in my
Jacqueline: Yeah. Speaking of like coexisting too, I mean. How do we reconcile what seems to be different messages in Scripture too? [00:17:00] So, one thing I was thinking about yesterday as I was kind of prepping for this is, you know, Jesus says in John 16 that in this world we will have trouble, right?
Then we look at other passages like 2 Thessalonians where it says the Lord is faithful and that he will guard us against the evil one. So how can you look at a God like who’s saying, you know, I will protect you like no weapon formed against you will prosper. And certainly we have to look at the context of the Scripture, but like, Those seem to be, like, two opposing messages, like, how can God say he’s gonna protect us and he’ll be with us, but then that, like, Jesus says, well, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have trouble still, right?
Matt: Yeah. I mean, that’s, uh, I have to think that, that, uh, the guarding and the protecting is in an ultimate sense, because the, the, the message and the reality of the message of the Bible and the reality of life is that, you know, Yeah, you’re going to, you’re going to suffer. In fact, the Bible does promise you will suffer in this life.
Like no, no one escapes it. Everyone dies. Everyone is, [00:18:00] uh, afflicted by the fallenness and the brokenness of the world. And so what does it mean that God protects us? What does it mean that he guards us? There’s a, there’s a, um, one of the Psalms, I think it’s Psalm 121. Maybe that, that uses this language of that.
He will keep us, he will keep us. He will keep like a, like a someone who’s, who’s, uh, keeping a guard and protecting watching over it. And so I think, I think there’s the promise is that you can experience the worst, the worst that life can throw at you, whatever it is. As Christians have experienced, uh, in brutal ways of being executed.
And the promise still holds true. He will still keep you. He will still guard you that can, that can not ultimately. touch you. And I think that that, in the sense of nothing can, nothing can separate you from the love that God has for you in Jesus. He will, [00:19:00] the worst thing that Jesus, the worst thing that people can do is kill you.
And like, that’s, that’s the, um, there’s a really, like, overwhelming, Like hard verse that Jesus says when he says, like, don’t fear people who can kill you, fear, fear, your,
uh, essentially fear, fear the one who can like send you to hell. So it’s like really hard, intense things. But he’s basically saying, if you pull it down, the worst thing that people can do to you is kill you.
And you’re like, what do you mean? That’s like the worst. That’s the ultimate. And Jesus is saying, it’s not, if I have you, not even death can touch you. So I think that’s like the ultimate fulfillment of that. Is what that is, but there’s probably also a secondary fulfillment of that, that God does guard us.
He protects our hearts from temptation. He protects our hearts from bitterness as we experience suffering, as we experience hard things. But I do think it’s, it, the ultimate realization of that is [00:20:00] that nothing in this life can, can separate you
from his hold on you.
Jacqueline: Yeah. No, that’s so good. And also too, I mean, I think going back to like, we don’t know the purposes or the reasonings behind our suffering. I think there’s an enormously, you can call it an even distribution of suffering, right? That like puzzles many of us of why do some of us suffer so little and others suffer so much.
And you look at people who are so strong in their faith, Matt, right? Like so, so strong. And they’re often the ones that experienced the most suffering. And you look at that and you’re like, God, how is someone who is so faithful to you? Who’s literally doing all of the right things.
Like, like, how are you permitting this? And. I mean, recognizing that, like, you know, R. C. Sproul, who I also have been reading a lot of recently, uh, since, since going to DPC, you know, he says that, like, there’s not one maverick molecule, right, that is outside of God’s control. And if there was, then, like, then God wouldn’t be sovereign.
So that’s brought me to this. Peace, [00:21:00] but also like angst in the sense of we know that like there’s not one thing that like we experience in our lives that doesn’t first pass through God’s hand, but then I look at situations of like things my mom went through that seem to be unnecessary now. And I’m like, God, like, why did you let that happen?
Right? Like, I don’t see. the purpose of that now? And again, I recognize that like we might not see it until like eternity, but just like rationally, like someone who’s thinking that, right? Like, how would you, how would you like help them sort through those thoughts?
Matt: Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say, um, well, two, two thoughts. One is that the, the faithfulness of somebody in the experience of suffering, like, it seems like those are, that’s an unfair equation. Those should not go together. Like if somebody’s faithful, they shouldn’t suffer. And as a Christian, [00:22:00] you, You look at Jesus and we’d say, he wasn’t just that he was faithful.
He was sinless. He was perfectly, he perfectly loved God. He perfectly loved his neighbors and he suffered more than any of us. And so it’s almost like that equation has to get questioned of like, if somebody really follows God, if they’re devoted to God, then they shouldn’t suffer. It’s like, that’s not the universe that we live in.
Uh, often those things do go together, but I would say in terms of like, But how do you explain that? Like, what do you do with something that feels so senseless? Like there’s so many, there’s so many things that have happened in Memphis. I mean, all, all evil is ultimately crazy and senseless, but there’s so many things that I just feel like that word has come up a lot in my conversations lately with.
People who’ve experienced hard things. Um, how do you, how do you explain senseless pain and suffering in a world in which apparently God’s on the throne and, and ruling over [00:23:00] ruling over every molecule? Um, I would say, so this goes back to the ultimately, like, we don’t know, but if that’s all you’re left with is we don’t know, that’s a really terrible place to land.
So that’s why I say ultimately you have to look at the cross and you have to look at the resurrection because that’s what. That’s what gives, that’s what takes the bite. Out of the, I don’t know, because what the cross is, is God looking at the pain and suffering of the world and not removing himself from it, but plunging into it.
Suffering with us, taking on the darkness and the evil and everything that’s broken about the world. He, he bears it down. in him. He’s not immune from suffering. He suffers with us. And the resurrection tells us that he’s making all things new, his resurrected body. One day, this is, that’s a picture of what he’s going to do with the whole world.
It’s all going to be made new and glorified and redeemed and all the yuck is going to be cast out. So if, if that’s the story, then, You [00:24:00] can look at senseless suffering and say, I don’t know why God would allow that. That makes no sense to me. And I know the reason why he’s allowing it is not because he doesn’t love me.
It’s not because he’s indifferent to my pain and suffering. It’s not because he’s not going to use it and, and, and undo it and somehow use it for even my good and the good of others and his glory. Like that’s the story that you frame. Senselessness, if you don’t have that story, then you just left with.
It’s all chaos and there is no, there is no one on the throne. There’s no one, you know, there’s no pilot in the, in the cockpit as it were. And I, that’s not a world that I think any human being can rationally live in. So again, but that doesn’t explain that doesn’t make the senselessness just therefore make sense, but it frames it in a way that where you can, you can, [00:25:00] you can continue to trust God and know that he’s good in the midst of
Jacqueline: Yeah, so true. And I think too like just on a personal note Suffering has also helped lend to my better understanding of having a more eternal focused Perspective. Um, have you read Heaven by Randy Alcorn?
Matt: I read pieces, chunks of
Jacqueline: Matt, it is an amazing, yeah, I,
I’m like probably 70 percent through. It’s so dense, so I’m like trying to be diligent about, like, actually taking notes and really fully reading it through.
But it’s so dense. It’s changed my thoughts a lot on, you know, just perspective, right? Like, are we living for this world? Are we living for the kingdom? And like, anytime you do get, like, a piece of bad news or, you know, a poor medical report, like, you look at that and you say, okay, , this too shall pass.
Like, this is what it is in this moment. But like, that’s, that’s not eternity. Um, And it it’s kind of it sounds like [00:26:00] counterintuitive because it’s like so then do you just live life like not caring what happens here and it’s not not necessarily but it’s like you don’t put as much of yourself in this world or your meaning like in the sufferings that you’re experiencing um so that’s been really helpful but also too I mean You People who have experienced extreme suffering, right?
I feel like there’s kind of two routes they could go down Right one is completely turn their back from God and get angry at God and then one is obviously draw close to God
Matt: Mm mm
Jacqueline: and people Who have experienced extreme suffering that you know, you’ve spoken to either in your congregation or outside What has made someone like more likely to go down one route over another because you could also look at someone who has like a really strong faith background, was raised Christian their entire lives and then experiences tragedy and then just like turn their back on God.
Like, is there, I don’t know, does that make sense?
Matt: Yeah. That’s a great question. I’m trying to think of like, like what would be the thing that [00:27:00] you boil it down to, because you’re right. Like suffering doesn’t automatically like you, we were talking about all these purposes that God uses suffering to, to draw people to himself or to transform their relationship with him.
And like, there’s all these other, I mean, this is kind of a crass word for it. There’s other, these benefits. The suffering, it makes you more humble. It makes you more empathetic. Like you were saying, it gives you a bigger perspective, you know, have any charting stuff. Like, so, so, but suffering doesn’t just automatically by osmosis, make that happen.
Suffering can also make you incredibly bitter, angry, jaded, cynical. So I’m trying to think of what is the, like, what, if you were to boil it down, what is the thing that. Because I have seen both. I have seen people who were strong, what I would have thought would have been strong Christians experience something hard and kind of put the faith.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: And I have seen people that were kind of, [00:28:00] you know, uh, like they’re just exploring spirituality or checking out Jesus and they go through something hard and then they They become Christians. Like it, it draws them towards Jesus. What’s the difference? Goodness. Maybe this is another, um, mystery thing. I mean, part of it has to be, the disposition of someone’s heart.
Um, is there a receptivity? Is there an openness? Is there a humility to say, okay, I’m not in control of the world. I’m not in control of my life. And I never was. And that’s a good thing because God is, or I’m not in control of this show. This is showing me I’m not in control of my life and I rage against that.
I hate that. And I’m going to shake my fist at God for, for this reality. I don’t know. That’s probably not, there’s probably a more profound answer. I think that’s a really
good that’s a great question. But, um, I don’t [00:29:00] know, ultimately, ultimately it’s just, I think it’s, it’s Everybody has to do business with the God of the universe, and suffering forces you to do business with him, and it’s either going to make you want to rage against him or collapse into his arms, and I don’t, I don’t ultimately know what is the baseline reason why one does one and one does the other.
It’s a hard disposition. It’s, it’s God’s, God’s It’s their story. It’s God’s, um, God’s working in their own heart and softening their heart as they’re experiencing things. So,
I don’t know. That’s a great question. I feel like I need to think about that for a few more years and then get back to you.
Jacqueline: All right. We’ll have a round two in a few years.
Matt: That’s right.
Jacqueline: Going back to grief, though, Matt, I mean, Is it a sin to be angry at God? Like, is there room for an angry response in a faith based response to suffering? I mean, we hear David cry out to God in the [00:30:00] Psalms, right? And God wants us to be real with our emotions.
So, I know some people might think, like, but isn’t being angry at God a sin? How would you address that?
Matt: Yeah, that’s another great question. Um, is being angry at God a sin? Uh, I think it depends. How about that?
Jacqueline: Works!
Matt: think, I think, yeah. So there’s, um, the framework that I have in my head is that there’s a conservative. Religious impulse to say, just stuff your feelings down, suppress them. No, no, no, no, no, no. You’re not allowed to be mad.
You’re not allowed to be sad. Just happy, clappy all the time. Praise God. Uh, you know, dah, dah, dah, dah, which is a very real reality. And then you have a progressive, almost non religious response of, no, your emotions are everything you have to express them. You have to do them. They’re, they’re who you are.
So if you’re angry, be angry. And if you’re sad, then like you. So. [00:31:00] And then Christianity comes in as this other option and says, no, don’t, don’t stuff them. Don’t, you know,
you know, do them, but to bring them to God, confess them. It is part of, it is part of. The life of faith to bring your true and honest self before God.
That’s what faith is. In fact, Jesus is always like, you know, beating up on the Pharisees. Like stop pretending, stop like posing and pretending to be somebody that you’re not. Like he says, and I think this is Luke. I just preached on this recently. I can’t remember exactly where it is now. 12 or 14, he says, give as alms, those things that are within, not the outside, like bring your insides to the outside.
So, and then you’re right. Like when you, when you read the Psalms, the Psalms say
things, yes, they say things that make us uncomfortable. Like, can you say that? [00:32:00] Can you cry out to God? How long are you going to keep doing this to us? Like stop it, like quit afflicting us, make it end. And, and so I think there is room to have this, but I think this is the difference.
This is why I say it depends because. You know, you, you also have the story in, um, the wilderness where, when the Israelites are freed from Egypt and they brought through their wilderness and they’re grumbling against God and they’re, they’re shaking their fist at him. And we, you know, they’ve turned their back on God.
They say, how could you do this? We want to go back there. We hate that you even saved us in the first place. Egypt is the best. This is the worst. And there’s a way to be angry at God that is not coming out of. Belief it’s not coming out of trust. It is God. You are the worst. I don’t trust you. I’m turning my I’m shaking my fist at you Here’s my middle finger and I’m going over here and you’re bringing your anger to him and there’s a way to be angry and [00:33:00] Have it being done in faith Of, I don’t understand, this is really hard, how could you do this, how long, but there’s a way of, it’s like fighting with a lover versus like fighting with an enemy, I guess, of like, there’s one, there’s a way of fighting that says, I want to destroy you, I hate that you exist, and there’s a, I’m in this with you, I love you, I need you, but I don’t, I don’t understand why this has happened because this is so hurtful and that there’s so much room for lament and grief and to being as an act of faith, being brutally, viscerally honest with God,
he invites it, he’s not scared of it and he doesn’t call it sin, he says, Yeah, I want your actual heart, not your like spiritualized
performance, not interested in like the song and dance of you showing me that you’re like an [00:34:00] awesome Christian, you
know?
Jacqueline: That’s so good. Speaking of singing and dancing though, I mean, Paul actually tells us to rejoice in our sufferings, right? And that is the most, like, unnatural response we can fathom. Just tactically, Matt, like, how can we actually rejoice amidst deep pain?
Matt: Gosh.
Jacqueline: What does rejoice mean in that context
Matt: know
Jacqueline: sufferings, like, how do you tell someone to do that?
Matt: if I’ve ever told somebody to do that, right. In the midst of, you know, a terrible diagnosis or something, you should rejoice. This is awesome. Um, Yeah, but yeah, so, so what does he mean by that? It, it, I was gonna say it does, it makes me think of, and you alluded to this a second ago. Um, but there’s a great Charles Spurgeon, again, to quote Spurgeon, a great Spurgeon quote that I think about all the time.
He says, I have learned to kiss the wave that [00:35:00] crashes me against the rock of ages.
Jacqueline: Wow.
Matt: And I’m just, I think that is such a profound statement because it’s so it’s easy to experience suffering and to, um, have it be the thing that just dominates your whole life. It becomes God. It becomes king. It controls your life.
And there’s a way to break it. Like just spiritually bypass suffering of like, I’m just going to pretend this is not hard and painful and destroy my life. I’m just going to smile and clap and rejoice. Jesus, you know, Paul says rejoice always. So rejoice in my suffering. So, but there, but there is this like deeper wisdom of, um, as you have gone through suffering to recognize this is, this can feel really.
Insensitive. And I don’t mean it to be that way. Uh, but I, I have felt this way, even firsthand in my own story, that things that I have experienced that you have learned to see them for the gift that they are because [00:36:00] you can, you can relate to them, like the, the, the. The wave that is crashing you against Jesus of like, I would not have had to cling as tightly to Jesus unless I had gone through this kind of like the Johnny Erickson Tata thing of like, I would never have had to fight for seeking Jesus’s face moment by moment if everything was just great in my life.
Now there is a way to really twist that and, and really, where you, where you can almost be like a, uh, a sadist or something like, yeah, well then let’s invite more pain and suffering. It’s like, no, no, no, no, that’s, I don’t think that’s, that’s Christian, but there is a way to see the hardships for the gift that they can be that they’re like, they’re like shepherds that are taking you by the hand and leading you over to Jesus.
And there is a sense of, I can rejoice that I’m getting to, I am, God’s doing deep work in me that [00:37:00] I would not have taken place apart from this. and like you said, like, once you put it in the ultimate story of you have the hope that one day, someday this is going away, like suffering in the Christian worldview, suffering has an expiration date.
Stamped on it, Jesus will come back and make all things new. And so it doesn’t, this is why in first Thessalonians as well, when, when Paul is talking about people who have died, and he talks about grieving, grieving those who have lost, he says, you know, let us grieve, but not without hope. That’s the Christian response is we grieve, but not in this hopeless way of like all is lost.
That’s the end of the world. It’s all over. No, no, no, no. We nor do you say, well, we’re just going to hope everything’s going to be okay. Great. So there’s no, what’s the point of grieving?
No, it’s both. We grieve, but not without hope. We rejoice in our suffering. Like, that’s just the paradox that I think the gospel gives somebody in their soul.
So,
I don’t know. That was [00:38:00] my two cents on that
Jacqueline: No, that’s, that’s so good. And that made me think of something else too. I mean,
Matt: Yes.
Jacqueline: Okay. You know, I’ve noticed in my own life that when I’m experiencing suffering, me personally, like something in my body or something in my life, I do feel this profound peace from God, right? And God promises to be with us in our suffering.
But I will say, Matt, I’ve found that I don’t have as much of that peace when I’m like, when I’m witnessing the suffering of someone I really love, right? So like my, like my mom, for example, like, Nothing bothers me more in this world than like seeing that suffering. It’s like I would rather be experiencing like the suffering myself than like witnessing it.
So I don’t know if that’s something that like you have felt or like you’ve seen, you know, others feel where it’s like, It’s almost harder to accept suffering when you’re watching someone you love go through it. You know, like, how, how do you deal with that without, like, letting it crush us?
Matt: [00:39:00] that’s, that is such a, I don’t know if I’ve ever thought of that before, but, um, yeah, I’ve totally felt that same way. You see people that are, that you love dearly that are hurting and you’re just like, I’d do anything, whatever I could do to make it go away. Like I feel this, even in a small way, it’s like with our children
when they’ve, when they. Yeah,
You’re like, I wish I could just like
climb into your heart and make it like, get it, make it better, go away. So I don’t know. That’s, but that is hard. That is, that is saying, um, I think this is also part of trusting God as you’re trusting God with other people and knowing like you are limited.
There’s this is what ministry could be so frustrating
Because Because you can’t. I don’t have the power to bring about the changes that I would like [00:40:00] to see happen. So if I’m sitting across the table from somebody, and let’s say, I’ve talked to people who are, they’re going, they’re blowing up their marriage.
They’re going through a divorce because they have just, they said, I’m out. I don’t love this person anymore. Cheating on them with someone. So, and you can see as an outsider, it is your selfishness that is destroying your life. And you’re in this, in this other person’s life, your marriage, it is your refusal to, you know, your, your, your addiction to your own comfort or pleasure or whatever.
But it’s like, I can, I can talk to you, but I can’t climb into your soul and like, rearrange it, re engineer it so that it’s working properly. So, I have, anyway, I use this as a dumb example of just realizing in ministry, you just kind of quickly come to terms with how limited, You really are. And then I’m not in control of anybody.
I can’t save anybody. God’s never asked me to do that. God’s just asked me to be present with people [00:41:00] and to, um, hurt with them. And, uh, so I, I think when you see your friends or loved ones that are going through hard things and you’re hurting. for them. One, I think that’s really beautiful. And that’s just a sign that you’re, you have a big heart and are you’re an empathetic person.
And I think that does just, it, it, again, it’s another opportunity to invite you to trust God in new ways with their life, to pray for them in new ways to yeah. But it is, it’s hard. Cause you’re like, I can’t do anything. I can’t fix it. I can’t make it stop.
You know, that’s a, that’s a tough spot to be in.
Jacqueline: Yeah. Made me think of something else. Matt, I could talk to you for a few hours, but I know we’re coming up on the hour, but in the context of suffering, I mean, like, like I was talking about, like my mom’s cancer, right? Is being the source of suffering. But let’s say the source of suffering is a person, right?
Like, let’s say like the [00:42:00] perpetrator of someone you love suffering is out there. They’re alive. Like they did something to someone you love or like, you know, they’re continuing to do it. How does one, like, forgive that? Person and again, that’s
Matt: Oh my goodness. Yes.
Jacqueline: how do you address?
How do you address that?
Matt: There’s a situation in our church right now where, there’s a, there’s a couple and their daughter, uh, Experience something really horrific at the hands of her husband. And so, uh, the daughter’s parents who, uh, I know are asking that question. They’re like, I know I’m supposed to forgive him, but he has, he has devastated our daughter and we love and their children, like their, their whole family’s blown up because of him.
How do I do that? Like, what do I, what do I do? And that is such a painful thing. That is like, that is [00:43:00] a, that’s another four hour long conversation. But, um, what I’ve told them is, Yes. Like the ultimate goal is forgiveness. Like Jesus says, you know, we pray this in the Lord’s prayer. Uh, get us to say our daily bread, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
Like we’re, we’re praying and saying to God, will you forgive us in the same way that we forgive other people? And it’s like, if, if we’re the standard for how we treat people who have hurt us or offended us, then. Please don’t have that be the standard for God, how you relate to me. So there is over and over this call to forgive, but if you think about it, like that’s the, that’s the summit of a mountain. So that’s gonna be a process for you to get there. Just know that’s the, that’s the trajectory that we’re aiming towards and that’s gonna take a lot of time because in a lot of ways, like, it’s hard to forgive somebody. People can do it, but it’s, it’s hard. This is, I think this is [00:44:00] the hardest thing Jesus asks us to do, by the way.
It’s to forgive people who have hurt us or who have hurt our loved ones. That is what his desire and it is, it’s what his desire is and it is what’s best for our well being. Sometimes you have to heal first, like the wound has to heal before you have the capacity. Sometimes, You have to like really do deep soul work to get in touch with your own need for forgiveness before you have the, even the resources to be able to offer to someone else.
But it is, I would never minimize it and say, well, just do it. Jesus says, do it. So do it. Or like, yeah, like, of course it’s like, no, this is really hard and it may take. Years of you really wrestling, praying, processing before you’re able to get to that spot. And the hope would be that you’d get to that spot.
Like, um,
and Lamont, uh, and Lamont has this famous quote. I think she got it from someone else actually, but she gets attributed to it. But she [00:45:00] says like refusing to forgive somebody who’s hurt you is sort of like you drinking rat poison, hoping that it kills the rat. You’ve heard that you’ve heard that line.
The great, it’s a great thing. Really like the refusal to forgive somebody, the bitterness, the grudge, the anger, the resentment, that’s just, that’s hurting you. It’s not hurting them. And so to release that, to give that away is the goal. But again, that is so hard when you’re hurt. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that could be our conversation in two years when we circle back.
Jacqueline: Sounds good. I mean God is, God is a God of redemption, right? He redeems everything, and I think, like, I just look back to the story of Joseph in the Bible, and Joseph experienced all the suffering when he was in prison, and then when he’s reunited with his brothers, his brothers are like, we’re so sorry, Joseph, how could you, you know, Please forgive us.
And Joseph basically says, it’s not my place to forgive you. Like you were just part
of God’s plan, right. To accomplish something. So, I mean, not to say that, like [00:46:00] every bit of evil is at the hand of God. It’s not, but he works through sin to bring about. His greater plan. Um, so that’s certainly, uh, certainly helped me.
Last question for you for now, Matt, to wrap it
up. Cause we covered, we covered so much. I’m going to have you back on again at some point. I really appreciate your time here. Um,
I know this conversation. Yeah, so much fun. I’m telling you that these are the things I love talking
about because it’s what I struggle with the most and it’s what I think listeners can, can really benefit from.
Um, but we’ve been talking about just past sufferings, present sufferings. What about someone who is constantly preoccupied with the future, and just like, how can we find peace with the possibility of future suffering, especially for someone who has experienced a lot of trauma in the past with chronic illness or, you know, like, for example, with my mom, it’s like every time there’s another scan, right?
It’s always that fear response of, Oh, what’s the scan like going to show? What are the tumor markers going to show? Like, [00:47:00] How can we find peace in a future that we haven’t even experienced yet?
Matt: would say those responses are, are normal. They’re natural. Um, I don’t, that doesn’t mean that they’re good, but I think that that means that they are, there’s a, there’s a reason why we have those responses. Like if we’ve been hurt or we’ve experienced a scary thing over and over, we’re just sort of primed to experience that the next time, like that feels like, yeah, that’s just what it feels like to be hurt. Uh, an embodied creature where we have grooves that get created in our brain pathways, and we come to expect patterns and realizations and stuff. Every time I walk into this room, something horrible happens. I’m going to be anxious about walking in that room next time. Like, yeah, that makes sense. And on the other hand.
You know, Jesus says, um, you know, don’t worry about tomorrow. Like today has got enough problems, problems of its own. [00:48:00] Um, and so I think there is this, like the part of the fight of faith is learning to not figure out tomorrow, but to trust him with today of, of, I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow and I can ruminate and loop and, and worry and think about it and just drive myself worrying about it.
That feels, uh, like, That’s an unhealthy thought pattern that we have to actively fight against. But, and, but there’s also the reality, like I said, there’s just a, sometimes it’s just a natural, it’s just how we’re wired. Like my, my mom is naturally like, we’ve just joked with her her whole life. She’s naturally a worrier.
She worries about everything.
And I think let’s try this. Yeah,
Jacqueline: her from, but
Matt: me too. I mean, I’m the same way. I got, I’m much more of an anxious person than a depressive person. And part of that is just my wiring, my genetics, like my, I’m just, [00:49:00] I’m, you know, always scanning for what’s gonna, what’s gonna hurt me next. And, um, so part of that is like, yeah, that’s just how I’m wired, but I do have to actively fight that when I get in the thought patterns of,
you know, what, what if, what if, what if, what
if,
Jacqueline: how do you fight that though? Like what, like what’s the first thing that comes to mind when you get in that, like, do you have a routine, like where you’re like, all right, like you start to spin, like, what do you, have you heard of, um, John Deloney here at this book called the non anxious life or how to build a non anxious life.
He’s like on Dave Ramsey’s network. I had
him on my podcast a few weeks ago, but he wrote a book basically on like strategies that he employs whenever he feels like he’s about to like spin out of control. And they were, they were helpful. But again, like different things are for like different people, but what are, what
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline: strategies?
Matt: Wow. Wow. This is, again, this is, this is another hour of, of stuff because my, my own like story with anxiety really since 2015, [00:50:00] 2016 has shaped a lot of my life really, I guess the past. However many years that is now, seven, eight, however many years. So this is a bigger story. Um, but, uh, in a macro sense that this has involved me, um, taking medicine and going to therapy and exploring my own story with the.
With a therapist and trying to figure out diet and exercise routines and how much coffee to drink and how much cat like all this stuff, but in a micro sense, like when I really start to feel it, like of like one of one of my. Kind of core fears is looking stupid in front of people, which is, uh, I don’t know why I chose, uh, you know, standing up in front of people every single week is my vocation.
If that’s, if that’s my core fears, because you’re pretty vulnerable, everybody’s looking at you. [00:51:00] Um, but I have these, I have these. Like I, I pray and I have, like, I have a document on my computer. It’s literally the name of the doctor is called scripture verse anxiety. And it’s all these different verses or quotes or different prayers from different people over the song lyrics that I’ve just kind of gathered over the years that have been sources of comfort to remind me that, okay, even if I like the, one of the phrases that I taken from one of my therapists is like the phrase, even if.
Of like, if I am, if I look stupid, like, I will be okay, even if I am, uh, you know, exposed. I’ll, I’ll, like, that, like, you picture the worst case scenario and you realize, okay, that, that can’t ultimately be true. touch me, but I have to do like, I have to, I have to pray and wrestle with Jesus to like, actually come to believe those things.
And it does, [00:52:00] it does. There is a freeing sense to that. And I can, I know we’re running out of time, but I can tell you stories of how God has really liberated me in certain instances, as I have gotten in touch with his love for me and my own.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: My own frailty and limitations and my own just natural stupidity and to being okay with that rather than terrifying.
What if someone sees that? What if someone’s, I know, I know this is unique to my story. We’re not talking about suffering or something, you know, Big and scary, but that’s at least in my life. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, so yeah, I breathe. I pray. I try to get quiet. I remind myself of truths that I know to be true, but it’s hard for me to believe that they’re true in the moment.
And then there’s these kind of bigger things of Exercise, diet, therapy, medicine, all, you know, eating and everything.
Jacqueline: Matt, there’s this great site called Well and Strong. You should check it [00:53:00] out. It’ll address kind of the physical components of that. But, uh,
that that sounds that sounds like an awesome document. Um, I might ask you to share it with me. I actually have a sticky note, um, on my desk. I’m a huge believer in just like, the more I see things, the more ingrained they become in my mind.
And my one here says, the peace that God gives us when our focus is on him is unexplainable. Um, so it’s What you focus on grows, right? And I’m a huge Norman Peale, uh, Vincent Norman Peale enthusiast. I have all of his books and I read probably a chapter of like the power of positive thinking every single morning because we’re human we forget things right and it’s just The more you fill your mind with something, like the more it grows and that’s what you focus on.
So I love that. Matt, last question for you. I promise in terms of like the, the suffering, uh, concept here, but when we don’t hear from God, right, when we feel like God [00:54:00] is silent in our suffering and our anxiety, we’re really actively seeking him, but we’re like, he’s just, we don’t feel him.
We don’t hear from him. What do you, what do you do?
Matt: come to mind are I seek you to face like there’s, um, I go through stretches where I, where I experienced that, or not, not necessarily because of suffering, but just, I, you just go through seasons where you’re like, I don’t sense the Lord’s nearness. I don’t, I’m praying, I’m reading the Bible, I’m reading different things. I’m trying to like, uh, activate my heart into, into sensing his beauty and his goodness and his wonder.
I’m getting that.
Jacqueline: Yeah. It’s like
Matt: And yeah, yeah. And I think that’s normal. Like that’s, that’s just a normal part of the. The journey of, of [00:55:00] following Jesus. And, but I think I have learned over the years, like it’s been easy in those seasons, just be like, okay, I’m just not going to do it. I’m just not going to pray. I’m not gonna, I’m going to kind of hit pause in my spiritual life.
And I think that’s the, like, that’s the worst thing you can do because you’re, you’re cutting off your, your supply line as it were to sensing his nearness. So the first thing is, is I try not to. I try to keep pushing through even when I’m not getting anything out of it. And knowing that those seasons are, at least in my experience, have been temporary.
Um, second thing is I talk about it with other people. like I have a, a group of friends that I get together with, uh, regularly. I’ve got a, I’ve got a good. Local friend here is another pastor that we kind of get together on a monthly basis and talk about our lives and, uh, marriages and our hearts. And I, you know, I let people know, like, I just feel spiritually [00:56:00] dead.
And I think there’s something that’s, it’s just important to involve other people in that and not just isolated, you know, I’m just going through it by myself. I’m in a vacuum and no one, no one knows what’s going on with me. And so, um, Those are the first two things that come to mind, but I think there’s a real like, um, like asking God to part of like showing up of like, it reminds me of the question you asked earlier about like suffering.
Do you ask for it to go away? Or do you ask for strength in the midst of it? I think part of it is like, you’re asking God, like, I don’t sense your nearness. Please, like, do not do not leave me like, show up, get close. Please, I need to, like, sense that you’re here. I know that you’re here. Part of me knows that you’re here.
Part of me does, but I’d need to feel that you’re here.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: This is a little weird, but, uh, I feel like you can handle it. But there’s a, there’s a, um, This is one other thing that comes to mind, but there’s a passage in Matthew 8 that’s a, uh, favorite passage of mine where there’s a leper, [00:57:00] man that has leprosy, that comes up to Jesus and says, if, if you are willing, you can
make me clean. Which is, I think, as I’ve meditated on that, it’s such a great question, because he’s saying, I know that you’re, you can make me clean. You have the power to heal me. I don’t know if you’re willing, though. Are you willing? If you’re willing, I know you can do it, but I don’t know if you want to do it. And it says that Jesus touches him, and he says, I am willing, and I have at times, And my time was with, you know, my devotional time or seeking the Lord’s face, like close my eyes and like put my own hand on my own shoulder to try to like, I need to bodily sense Jesus like cares about me and like, he is willing.
He does. Long for me to feel whole and to be whole. And sometimes I need reassurances like that, even because my own heart can’t manufacture it. I need, I [00:58:00] need to know that you’re with me. So
Jacqueline: Yeah, no, that’s
that’s so good. I keEp saying last thing But like I keep having all these other questions But with that too, like Jesus also says like, you know, like your your faith has made you well, right? So for people who are experiencing suffering be that mental or physical how can you not help but think?
You don’t have enough faith if you’re not made well, because Jesus says, by your faith, like, let it be done unto you. And you can look at this mountain and say, move. So it’s like, based on what Jesus says, , how do you reckon like reconcile? With your faith you’ll be made well, but then also, like, God has his own purposes and reasons for his suffering.
It’s like these two, again, like, kinda opposing messages.
Matt: This is
Jacqueline: However long you want, let’s go.
Matt: There’s no, we have no, there’s no time limit
here.
Jacqueline: no. Not for you, Matt. We could go forever.
Matt: It’s like a Joe Rogan podcast, like a eight, eight hour episode. Um, two thoughts. [00:59:00] Um, one is that, uh, when, when Jesus is talking about faith, he’s often talking about, um, well, the way to understand faith is, um, there’s a difference between uh, what’s the, what’s the expression? What’s important about faith is not the quality of the faith, but the object of the faith,
Jacqueline: Hmm.
Matt: meaning when like faith is faith is a mechanism that connects you to something else in the, something else is the thing that it, that has the power.
It’s like your computer cord, like your computer cord in and of itself. is nothing. It has no power. It can’t do anything. But it’s when you plug it into the wall, then your computer is charged or your phone is charged. It’s getting what it needs. And so when you go through the reason why, you know, when Jesus says, your faith has made you well, I don’t think he’s saying it is the quality of your faith.
That, that is the thing that [01:00:00] has healed you is no, it’s, I have healed you, but you had enough faith to come to me. This is why he says, even if you have faith, the size of a mustard state, it’s like, you don’t, you, you need barely anything. Even if you just in a half hearted way, come to me, you get me and I’m the one that heals you.
It’s like, it’s like, um, it’s like, uh, if you and I were out hiking in the woods, in the middle of December, we’d come up to this frozen river. And you say, Hey, let’s go across. And you walk across the ice and you get to the other side. And I’m freaked out though. I’m like, Oh my goodness. I’m she, maybe she cracked the ice.
Maybe it’s too thin. What if I fall in? And you say, it’s fine. You have, you have all this confidence. I have none, but I, I ended up going across the ice and I get to the other side. If somebody looked at us and said, uh, it was, it was the quality of their faith. that saved them and protected them from falling [01:01:00] into the water.
We would say, no, it wasn’t Jacqueline had crazy high faith. Matt had barely any faith at all. It was the ice that held them up. It was the strength of the ice that protected them and saved them. So, uh, I think that’s, that’s what’s going on there. But the other thought, the second thought is that, um, Well, I don’t know if you’re asking this, but this is this, you made me think of this that God uses God uses means, um, he, we were talking about in terms of like medical stuff or, or, or suffering.
well, maybe you asked this, but you said something that made me think of this. I don’t know. So this feels left field. You know, whatever, just delete it from the files. But, um, but, um, but God asks us, yes, God asks us to trust him, but he also provides means by which to trust him with. So if like, [01:02:00] like you’ve heard the old, uh, story, it’s like, uh, I don’t know who came up with this.
It’s like an old parable made up story of like the person who is like in the flood, you know what I’m talking about? That
whole story.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: Helicopter comes. He says, no, I’m waiting on God to
Jacqueline: boat Yeah.
Matt: there’s something else. I can’t remember what the third thing
Jacqueline: Yeah. I don’t know. I always think of the helicopter and the boat. But Yeah,
Matt: Yeah,
Jacqueline: was a third, avenue too.
Matt: I feel like all stories or jokes need like a third, a third piece to it anyway.
But yeah, so, so the guy dies and he, he faces God and he’s like, why didn’t you save me? And God’s like, I sent you a boat. I sent you a helicopter. I sent you the third thing. And so God does provide us with means. And part of, part of faith is trusting him with those means of, okay, I’m going to trust you.
You’ve, you’ve provided this, this medicine or this therapy or this, you know, treatment, I’m not going to deny that those things. Don’t matter in your world in the same way I’m not gonna [01:03:00] deny that you use food to energize me and fill me I’m not gonna wait around for you to just magically fill me. So,
Jacqueline: Right.
Matt: um, I don’t know I feel like, uh, I feel like that was a little left field, but you said something
Jacqueline: No, I’m so glad I’m so glad you you touched on that. Yeah, I mean again Matt that’s a Topic for a whole other episode, but yeah, I I think I think like something I’ve been battling with too It’s like feeling almost badly if like, you know My mom pursues a certain like modality or treatment because it’s like does that mean I don’t have enough that like God could do it On his own, you know, but like just like you said like God created Medicine like he created like human minds to like work through like create medicine and like so it’s not it’s not a sin to do that and then something that’s also given me pieces knowing that like, you know, Jesus says, like, whether you walk this way or this way, like, you’ll hear a voice saying this is the way walk in it.
And like, he is always guiding our steps. And as someone who came from a Catholic background, like, just [01:04:00] understanding God’s sovereignty has given me so much peace because I’m not really like scared or paralyzed to make quote unquote like the wrong decision like I had a really great conversation with a good friend the other day and I was like if we’re presented with two choices like choice a and b both honor God right but like we don’t know which one to to go down like how do we know which one is right and I don’t know what your response to this is, but her response was, she’s like, I think they’re both right.
Like, if you’re really seeking and honoring God, like you can’t really go wrong with either one.
Matt: Ultimately, I think that’s right. Like there’s, there’s, there’s a, I think there’s a process and decision making you can, you can go down and take, but yeah, if you’ve done the process and you get to the end of it and you’re like, I’ve done all my due diligence, I’ve done all the research. I’ve talked to everybody.
I prayed. I looked at the, like, this is a. It’s like, yeah, then it’s like, they’re both great. Like just
pick one.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: not like there’s a secret magic door. That’s the right one. And the, yeah, the second one, [01:05:00] you’re then you’re getting your whole lives could be
Jacqueline: Yeah. And that’s funny. Cause that’s how, like, I would formally think of it. It’s like, God’s behind door A or door B. And then depending upon what he’s good, he’s going to open it. It’s going to be like, dun dun dun, like this or this, but he doesn’t work like that. And the more I know, like his character, like the more I realized, like, That’s not, that’s not the case.
Matt: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
Jacqueline: Yeah.
Matt: right. Yeah.
Jacqueline: Anyway, Matt, this has been, this has been my favorite conversation to date. I will say
that.
Matt: Well, so fun.
Jacqueline: I’m, I’m truly thankful. I know, right? I woke up this morning. I was like, can’t wait to talk to Pastor Howell about suffering, but I know this conversation is going to, it’s going to help a lot of listeners.
It’s going to encourage many. It certainly has encouraged me. Um, and as I said, thank you again for just all of the work that you’ve done. I listen every single Sunday to your sermons. Um, and with that too, where can listeners, where can listeners tune in to, to hear them as well?
Matt: Uh, well, it’s just Redeemer Memphis is our church and [01:06:00] I think it’s, uh, I’ll think, I think we post stuff to our website, but I think that’s through like iTunes and Spotify and I don’t know wherever else I’m not, I’m not the tech guru, but I
Jacqueline: I’ll link it.
Matt: them in those places.
Jacqueline: Yes. Yeah. I’ll be linking it in the show notes. And my very last question for you, and this is my favorite one to ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to you?
Matt: Hmm. Wow. Uh, I would say, you know, I really I think everything is kind of upside down in the kingdom. It’s not that I think everything is upside down in the kingdom. Everything is upside down in the kingdom. So, so the picture of someone who’s well and strong, weirdly enough, is a picture of someone like Johnny Erickson Tata, who is physically a broken person.
And yet she is happy and whole in Jesus. And cause I, you know, there’s the, there’s the weird, um, You know, when Paul says, when I am weak and I am strong, [01:07:00] and so there’s, um, there’s just a weird paradox there of the times when I have felt the weakest, the most at the end of myself, the most like Jesus is alive, present, working, near, Like that’s, that’s when I feel like I’m actually well and strong, even though I feel in, in, in and of myself weak and needy, but I’m, I feel like I could conquer the world.
Like, yeah, again, I could tell you stories of times where I have felt. So scared, so empty in my robe, and have felt Jesus show up in such a way that I have felt so liberated that I’m
like, I don’t care what anyone thinks. You can, you, you, you can, you know, kill me if you want to. Like, I, I feel, uh, almost like a supernatural purge.
So, there’s a, um, I don’t know. That’s, that’s a rambly answer to a great question. What does it mean to be well and strong? I, I think, um, [01:08:00] uh, being close to Jesus, ultimately.
Jacqueline: I love that. I think that was a beautiful answer. Well, Pastor Matt, thank you again so much for your time. You got to let me know the next time you’re in Greenville and I’m going to come pay you, I’m going to surprise you one Sunday at church. I’m going to be like making a Memphis visit. be
Matt: That’d be awesome. That’d be awesome. Yeah. Come on. We’ll show you around. You’ll, you’ll eat some good food. It’s great. Hey, it’s been such a gift to get to hang out with you. Thanks for having me on here. it’s
Jacqueline: No, absolutely. It has. I’m, I’m looking forward to the next one. We should just start a series and, and all your free time. Cause you have all this free
time, right.
With two kids and pastoring a church.
Matt: That’s right.
